House of Commons enquiry into fruit trade: Matthias Lucas' evidence (1839)

Post date: Apr 02, 2013 9:6:5 AM

In 1837 duties on foreign fruit imported to the UK were substantially cut and the House of Commons held an enquiry to establish the effect. I am grateful to Lucy Williamson for pointing out to me the evidence, available on Google books, given to this enquiry by Matthias Lucas of Wateringbury Place.

The statistics quoted by Mathias Lucas to the enquiry as to the amount of land devoted to fruit production are slightly more than that revealed in the tithe survey undertaken shortly afterwards.

After Matthias evidence, recorded as a separate posting, is given by George Thomas Langridge of the Beck.

Throughout the parliamentary record refers in error to Warternbury rather than Wateringbury.

Matthias Prime Lucas, Esq., Alderman, called in; and Examined.

1322. Mr. Hodges..] YOU live in the parish of Warternbury [sic], in the county of Kent ?—I do."

1323. How many years have you lived there?—About 10 or 11 years.

1324. Have you purchased a considerable estate in that parish ?—Yes, in the year 1821, of Sir Charles Style.

1325. Does that extend into any other parish except Warternbury [sic]?—Mereworth, and a small portion in the parish of Nettlestead, both adjoining parishes, and I believe a small portion in East Malling.

1326. Do you occupy or let the greater part of your estate?—I let the greater part of it, occupying about a sixth or seventh of the cultivated land; and the greater portion of the wood-land is in my own hand.

1327. Is not the greater part of that estate well adapted to the growth of fruit?—Very much so I apprehend, from the extent of fruit plantations in that district, not merely in that parish, but in the adjoining parishes; that it is considered more favourable to the growth of fruit than many other parts of the county.

1328. Is any part of the estate which you hold in your own hands under fruit cultivation?—A considerable part of it.

1329. Did you find it so cultivated, or have you planted any orchard ground? —I found it considerably cultivated as to fruit, but I have improved it very much, and increased the fruit plantation very considerably.

1330. Do you send the produce of your orchards to market?—Always.

1331. You do not consume them in the making of cider, or in any other domestic consumption ?—Whenever the price of fruit at market will not yield more than the expense of getting it there, and the expense of sale, we convert the fruit of that description that gives no return whatever into cider. The cider when sold not yielding enough to give the grower much more than 1s. per bushel for his apples used in making it.

1332. Then if you had not, generally speaking, a market for your apples, you would not think of growing apples for the purpose of making cider?—Certainly not.

1333. The making of cider, therefore, would be no compensation to you as a fruit grower for the loss of the market?—The cider which they make in Kent is in bad repute; I have made a great deal myself, and I have never sold a pint of it in my life; I have always given it to my workpeople; I have never made it but from necessity, because I could not convert the apples into any other use; our workpeople drink it freely; some of them prefer it to beer.

1334- Have you, since you have been in the habit of supplying the market with your own fruit, generally had a price which has repaid you the cost of production?—I think we have generally; but upon some occasions, where our growth has been excessive, the price has been so much reduced in value, that we have selected the better description of fruit, that would yield a return, and sent those to market, and have consumed the rest, I mean the windfalls and bad sorts, by making cider of them.

1335- What is your opinion as to the effect upon the growth of English fruit, with reference to your own county, from the alteration of the Customs Act of last year ?—I think the effect of it will be excessively injurious to all those districts that depend, in a considerable degree, upon the production of their fruit plantations; I think it will press heavily in many instances upon the industrious labourer; it is very much the practice in the county, and in our neighbourhood, if we can, to attach to a cottage a small portion of land; and when we have cottages of that description, it enables us to get a better description of workmen; and in a productive fruit year, I have known cases where one or two apple trees in a cottager's garden have paid the rent of his cottage.

1336. The market, therefore, being lost to that class of persons, must unavoidably seriously injure them?—Certainly; it would affect all classes of persons in the parish.

1337. What is the population of your parish ?—I was desirous of stating that, by way of showing how much our population has increased, in consequence of the culture of fruit and hops, but in a great degree from the culture of fruit, as compared with parishes within the same union which are upon the hill, that are not so well calculated, to grow fruit; and the Committee will perceive, by this paper, the number of acres of each parish and the population, as returned by the census of 1831, which, I think I can venture to say, has in our parish increased considerably; I should say that the population amounted now to 1,300 persons in the parish of Warternbury[sic].

1338. What was the population of the parish of Warternbury at the last census:—In 1831, it was 1,109.

1339. What is the number of acres in the parish ?—Of cultivated acres, about 1,200 ; say about 1,280 including coppice-wood.

1340. What proportion of that is under fruit cultivation?—I should think at the present moment 300 acres. I have a return here, sent to me by a person who went over the parish to take an account of the number of acres in cultivation, which does not give so much as that; but I have a letter from him, wherein he states that in some parts, where the fruit had recently been planted among hops, which is the practice, they took them as hops; and that they did not take the fruit when there were hops, unless the trees were of a great many years' growth. Our system of raising orchards in West Kent is this, that we plant our orchards in hop grounds, and grow hops at the same time; the culture of the hops improves the culture of the trees, and when the trees get sufficiently large to drive the hops out of the ground, it is then converted into orchard. We have a considerable portion of land in our parish which is so circumstanced, and therefore I say 300, or nearly 300, though that return does not give more than 246.

1341. Have you made any calculation, as a fruit planter, as to the number of persons employed upon an acre of fruit throughout the year ?—No, I have not; but I know that we have a much larger number of persons employed in fruit parishes than they have in the corn parishes; I should suppose as three to one.

1342. Is it your opinion that labourers employed in the fruit culture are, generally speaking, better off than they are in the mere agricultural parishes ? —I think they are.

1343. Does that arise from the superior wages, or principally from the greater employment of their wives and families, or from both?—Our day wages are the same, in Kent 12s. a week, but it arises from their having more constant employ; we are quite, satisfied about that, because, whenever we get a working man into our parish that does not belong to it, we have the greatest difficulty in the world in getting him out; he will stay till he is starved almost, sooner than go back to the parish where he knows he cannot get so many months' employment as in the parish where fruit and hops are grown.

1344. Mr. Planta] Does it not arise also from their families being so much employed ?—It does; hop-picking employs the man, his wife, and all his children that are above six or seven years old, and the same with the cherries to a very great extent; nearly the whole of the cherries are gathered by women.

. 1345. Mr. Hodges] I need hardly ask you, as an alderman of the city of London, whether you have had much experience of the condition and the habits of the lower class of people in this metropolis?—I have had considerable experience; in fact, the whole of the earlier part of my lifetime has been passed among the working classes; I have had a great deal to do with them from my connexion with the river Thames.

1346. Did you ever hear at any time in your life, but more particularly within the last 20 years, any complaint on the part of the consumers of this necessary fruit, apples, of either the high price of them, or of the scarcity of them, or, in fact, any complaint whatever of the supply of the market ?—I have never heard any complaint, other than occasionally at the latter part of the year; perhaps, in the month of April or March, people have complained when the greater proportion of apples have been consumed, of paying a high price for nonpareils; but I have never heard complaints of any other kind.

1347. But the nonpareils do not find their way to the poor man's table?— No, I have only heard it from those who wanted them for dessert; the higher classes.

1348. Mr. Ewart.] Have you heard any complaint of the dearness of other fruit which is used for cooking —No.

1349. Nothing but dessert fruit?—No; I have heard that spoken of, because it bears a most extraordinary price compared with common fruit.

1350. Mr. Hodges.] You have specified nonpareils, but are you aware whether those come from any other country but England?—Yes, some of them I think are imported from France, but I have never heard the lower class of people complain; on the contrary, it must be known to everybody conversant with London that many of the lower class of people get their bread by selling apples; they have frequently been sold for 1s. and 1s. 6d. a bushel in the markets to poor people who retail them in the streets.

1351. Are you speaking of English or foreign apples?—English.

1352. Have you ever made any calculation as to the value of the duty that was taken off last year to the English grower of apples —I have considered that it was a protecting duty, encouraging us to appropriate a portion of our land that was calculated to produce fruit, and to expend considerable sums of money in producing fruit plantations and orchards.

1353- In your opinion have the English growers been backward in availing themselves of that encouragement:—Not at all; quite the reverse; in fact, our cultivation is, generally speaking, beyond the consumption, as I have mentioned, that we have frequently, from the extent of our fruit plantations, been compelled to resort to making cider.

1354- What, in your opinion, will be the result of removing the duty altogether, which is the case now, for although the duty is nominally 5 per cent., it is nothing in point of fact by way of encouragement; what therefore, in your opinion, will be the effect upon the English plantations, if it remains as it is ?— I think the great body of them must be broken up and converted to other purposes; it is impossible that we can compete with the Continent, particularly France, in the growth of apples, as the law stands now, and with respect to the present duty, because it scarcely amounts to anything. I believe I shall be able to show that the timber composing the case in which the apples are imported would, if it were not reduced below the size subject to duty, pay about half the duty as is now paid on apples, and the cases are evidently contrived to convert to other purposes, after the apples are sold, for they are bought by carpenters and box-makers, and are used in the building of cottages; they are new deals, and therefore, in point of fact, there is a profit upon the package, and the package pays no duty, though it is composed of new wood; all timber used for packages not exceeding six feet in length is not subject to duty; those cases sell for 3s. and 3s. 6d. a piece currently in the market, after taking the apples from them, and the duty on each case would amount to somewhere about 4 1/2 d. there are 40 feet of inch deal in one of the packages.

1355. Mr. Planta.] What amount of fruit is there in each package?—In those cases four bushels. The duty in the four bushels about 9 d.

1356. Mr. Ewart.] Were you speaking of the duty on the wood?—I was contrasting the duty on the wood with the duty on the apples. The duty on the contents of the case is about 9 d. for the four bushels of apples. The package as deals, if not reduced to six feet in length, would be about 4 1/2d. each case.

1357. Chairman] When you say 2d., do you mean 2d. for each case, or 2d. for four bushels ?—There have been imported into the port of London, between the 29th of October 1838 and the 25th of April 1839, 111,947 bushels of apples.

1358. What do you get that return from?—I have got the return from the Fruit Meters' Office; I have every ship, the number of bushels each ship brought, and the ad valorem duty upon the fruit; I put that together, and it amounts, between the 29th of October 1838 and the 20th of April 1839, to 111,947 bushels; and the duty paid upon the valuation of £24,447, which is what the whole were valued at, produced a duty to the revenue of £1,222. 7 s.; that is, for the whole importing season in the port of London.

1359. Mr. Hodges] Have you made any calculation of what would have been the revenue to the State under the former duty ?—I have it here. The duty paid on the 111,947 bushels is £1,222. 7 s., at the ad valorem duty of five per cent. The old protecting duty, on the same quantity of bushels, would have amounted to £22,389. 8s., therefore, apparently, there is a loss to the revenue, from the change of duty, of £21,167. 1s. in the port of London. I have taken the whole of the quantity at the old duty, but I do not think I ought to do so. I have taken some pains to inquire among the fruit salesmen, and the result of my inquiries is, that they think at least two-thirds, if not three-fourths, of the quantity that I have stated as the whole quantity, would have come had the protecting duty remained; that the foreign growers would have picked out their worst description of apples, and would not have sent them to pay 4s. a bushel; but they think, from our fruit-crop having failed, that two-thirds would have come and paid the 4s. duty; therefore, to take one-third from the whole, it would make it a loss to the revenue of about £14,000. in the port of London.

1360. Mr. Kinnaird.] Have you made any calculation as to the amount of duty at present paid per bushel ?—This is per bushel; although, under the letter of the Act of Parliament, it does not seem that the importer is absolutely called upon to specify the quantity of bushels, yet the officers of customs have felt that they should not be so well able to make a calculation, whether the fruit was sufficiently valued or not, unless the importer gave them the quantity of bushels: he has no means of doing that, but by calling in the sworn fruit meter of the port of London, from whom I have had this account, and he gives the number of bushels, and the value of the fruit as entered at the customs, and the duty paid on it.

1361. Mr. Hodges.] Then he does that by view, and not by measure ?—Not exactly so; I think the packages being alike, he measures one package, and then makes his calculation from that; it enables the officer to come to closer calculation as to whether the fruit is sufficiently valued.

1362. Mr. Kinnaird.] Have you made any calculation as to the amount of duty paid per bushel at the present rate of duty ?—Yes, I have; I think it amounts, as near as I can calculate, to 2 1/2 d., and I think the fraction of a farthing beyond it.

1363. Mr. Hodges] As you have made very accurate inquiries into the state of the import trade into London, can you inform the Committee in what description of vessels this foreign fruit arrives; is it principally in English or foreign —I think a proportion of them in English, but I think the preponderance in French vessels.—[On making further inquiry, I find the number of English vessels exceeds French, Dutch, Flemish, and American vessels in bringing fruit to the port of London, which I am glad to correct.]

1364. Do you know at all what the foreigner takes back in his vessels, when he has discharged his cargo of fruit ?—My own belief is, I do not of my own knowledge know it, but from the best information I have been able to get, I think ??ths of them have gone back in ballast; some have taken empty cases with them, if they could not sell them, and bring fruit in them again.

1365. What remuneration do they receive; is it in money or goods that they are paid for their apples?—I believe a very considerable portion of the money must necessarily find its way to France to pay for them; but some of the most considerable importers of foreign apples are persons who went from this country to buy them for their own speculation, therefore the money goes to them in the first instance, but they must pay for them.

1366. Mr. Planta.] Englishmen?—Yes; they knew the advantages that the foreigner would get by opening our markets to them on such easy terms, and they went over immediately, as I understand: and I have the names of the persons here- They are respectable persons; and they contracted to take the growth of the orchards. I do not believe that there is anything scarcely in the shape of English manufacture or English goods that goes back in payment of those apples. Few people who receive money choose to buy English manufactured goods; there is plenty in France, and I hope there always will be, and they are nearly as cheap there as here.

1367. You have stated that you are well acquainted, and have for a long time been acquainted with the middle and lower classes of persons in this great city, and that you are also well acquainted with the cultivation of fruit; are or are not apples a great article of consumption among the middle and lower classes of this city?—I think at certain seasons of the year a very large portion of the cottagers and working classes subsist upon apples, made into puddings for themselves and children.

1368. Do they make it a great article of consumption?—Yes, and an article of employment likewise.

1369. During the number of years in which the late duty subsisted, was there a very great dearth of apples for such consumption?—I never recollect them to have been very scarce, because, if you look at the Return, which is a Return ordered by The House, you will find that for 20 years, from the year 1819 to 1838, it varies; and it shows at once, that when our apple crop has been abundant, the importation of foreign apples has been very inconsiderable. Perhaps the whole duty paid in those years upon apples imported into the United Kingdom has been £2,000 or £3,000. Our market has been always open to foreigners in those years when we could not supply it ourselves, and they have then brought apples and paid the duty. But they have always governed themselves in this way; they have always sent their best fruit to our market; they would not send their inferior refuse fruit, to pay 4 s. duty; therefore, when you find the duty in several years £2,000, £3,000, and £4,000. for the whole United Kingdom, and in other years £25,000, £30,000, and £40,000, it has been that in the one year our crop has been short, and the supply has been increased in consequence of the foreign fruit. When our crop has been abundant they have never sent anything but some very choice picked fruit, which has enabled them to pay 4s. duty, because all the apples that I sent to market in the years 1836 and 1837 did not average more than 2s. 9d. and 3s. a bushel, the whole of them; that would shut out the foreigner, except for some choice fruit, which we do not grow here.

1370. Has there been a great glut of apples since the duty has been taken off?—No; the last year our crop failed considerably in many parts of the kingdom.

1371. So that, in point of fact, you do not think that, since the duty has been taken off, the supply has been greater than the demand?—By no means. I think that two-thirds of the apples at least that we had last year would have come in and paid the 4s. duty. It has been injurious to those persons who grew fruit, because the quantity grown was not very considerable, and they would otherwise have had the advantage of getting a higher price for it; but the fact is, as regards our growing fruit, that our plantations are so large that three-fourths do not give any remunerating price in an abundant year.

1372. But the circumstance of there being no glut may be partly owing to the bad crop of apples last year?—Exactly so.

1373- Chairman] Have you paid much attention to the relative qualities of British and foreign apples?—Of course my attention has been drawn to it, because, whenever we have found that there was a particular description of French fruit that came here, paying 4s. duty, and that it was very much sought after, we have endeavoured to bring in that sort of fruit, and we have endeavoured to get plants or cuttings of it.

1374. But, as a general observation, should you say that it would be correct to say that the French apple was, generally speaking, of a keeping kind, and the British, generally speaking, of a non-keeping kind ?—No; some of our apples will keep to almost the crop of the following year, and in great abundance, and they pay us best.

1375- But the question was generally speaking; I am aware that France produces non-keeping apples, and that England produces keeping apples; but, generally speaking, is not the French apple of a keeping quality, and the English of a non-keeping quality ?—I do not think that is the case. I think that in both countries they have what they call an early apple and a late apple; and, with us, we find that the apple that will keep very late gives a greater profit than the apple that must be consumed in a certain time, or it decays. But I have no doubt, that if there was any difference between the one and the other, they would soon find their way into the country.

1376. Mr. Ewart] Do not apples get dear towards the spring?—Yes; that is the keeping apple.

1377. Do not those apples which have been described to the Committee as the royal russet, come into the market at that time when the apples are growing dear?—I do not think a greater proportion, with reference to the quantity imported, would come from France than would come from England.

1378. But does such a proportion come as to keep down the price ?—There is no question that at the end of the season, between Christmas and March, and April or May, there are apples at home sold every day, and we shall have them for a month yet from the present time, but not abundant.

1379. Is it not an advantage to the consumer to be able to have the foreign apple from the end of the year, to keep down the price, as apples become scarcer towards the spring?—Anything that tends to keep down the price must be an advantage to the consumer.

1380. Does not the introduction of the foreign apple tend to keep down the price?—It must have that tendency.

1381. Is the English or the French apple, for common household purposes, the best?—I should consider the English apple quite as good as the foreign for general purposes. I should never buy foreign apples in preference to the English.

1382. Sir E. Filmer] When you stated that the labourers in the fruit districts were better off than the labourers of other agricultural districts, in consequence of their being able to obtain work for themselves and their families, that applies to cherries as well as apples ?—Yes, and rather more so. I have myself employed, for a month or six weeks in succession, except on the wet days, upwards of 40 women in gathering cherries, the labourers' wives and their daughters.

1383. And the same would apply to all small fruit?—Yes; they are employed in picking up the fruit, gathering and packing it, and marketing it. I market the fruit for the sake of employing the people of the parish. I do everything that I can to find labour for the population of the district.

1384. Your cherry growth is, in fact, affected just as much by this change as the apple ?—I do not think it will be quite, and I will state the reason : the cherry is an article that is not worth much, unless it is brought to market within 12 or 14 hours after it is gathered; now, the cherries that I send to market, which we are gathering at four or five o'clock in the afternoon, are in the London markets by three or four the next morning; and, therefore, the disadvantage to the foreigners, as regards cherries, would be this, that it is quite impossible they can get them to market so soon as we can; the look of the cherry changes in 12 or 14 hours; you may always tell a cherry that has come to market that day from a cherry that came the day preceding, by the look.

1385. Mr. Planta.] Have you any knowledge of the importation of cherries this last year?—No; but I do not think, for the reason I have stated, that it is considerable; I think it may be great upon the coast; they may get across the water quite as soon as from West Kent to London; but in coming to London, I think the disadvantage to the foreigner, on the score of time, gives us reason not to expect so much mischief.

1386. At what time would cherries be imported into this country; would it be in the spring?—I think, from some parts of France, they generally find their way to the coast, and even sometimes to London, before our cherries are quite ripe; we have had cherries from Lisbon by the steamers, but I think very few people have approved of them. With regard to the population of the parishes in West Kent, where they have a very considerable quantity of land under the tillage of fruit, if we are not relieved in some way, we shall suffer a very severe

loss by destroying that which has cost us very large sums of money, and then the population will be thrown out of employment; we have more than a soul for every cultivated acre of land in the parish where I live, and I think other parishes are like circumstanced.

1387. Mr. Hodges.] You are a magistrate for the county of Kent?—Yes.

1388. Of course, then, you are an ex-officio guardian under the Poor Law? —Yes.

1389. Are you aware of any resource to which you could resort for the employment of that large body of labourers that must be thrown out of employment, if the fruit cultivation ceases in a great measure in the county of Kent ? —I know of none.

1390. What would become of those families as to their subsistence?—I have no hesitation whatever in stating, that unless we are relieved, the poor-rates in the parish where I live, and in other parishes, will be increased very considerably.

1391. When you use the word relief, do you mean by a restoration of the duty, or an equivalent to it, so as to enable the cultivation to go on?—Yes.

1392. Sir Edward Knatchbull] Then, in your judgement, the continuance of the present state of things, as regards duty, will lead to displanting, and to the removal of a number of persons from an occupation that is now profitable to them?—If my estate was to be sold tomorrow, as the law stands now, I should say it is not worth so much by £10,000; I am quite sure the rents must be diminished; and if it were to go into corn land, the loss would be very considerable; for I can state a circumstance which occurred when I purchased my estate: on taking possession of part of the land, the person who was the occupier produced a letter from the present Sir Charles Style, Member for Scarborough, to say, that on his quitting the farm, he would remunerate him for the expense he had been at in raising a fruit plantation of 10 acres; I knew nothing of that when I bought the estate; it was not at all a contingency in the particulars of my purchase, I therefore took it to his solicitors, who were most respectable people, and they read the letter; they said, this is Sir Charles Style's handwriting; he has undertaken to remunerate the man; we must beg you to do it for us, and we will allow it out of the purchase-money; it was referred to respectable persons to say what sort of consideration this man should receive for finding the trees, and raising the plantation, and they awarded him £20, an acre; I allowed £200, in taking possession of the orchard of this person, and I received £200 from Sir Charles Style as a set-off in the purchase-money. I think that was the sum allowed.

1393. Mr. Hodges.] What was the growth of those trees at the time when that compensation was allowed?—I should think about eight or ten years.

1394. Then it had not come to perfection?—Not entirely to perfection; but there was the expense of raising them, and the purchase of the trees. There were hops growing among them, and hops are growing among them now, but, of course, much diminished in quantity, in proportion to the growth of the trees.

1395. Sir E. Knatchbull] Will you state upon what ground that allowance was made ?—I believe it originated in this way; at least I have heard it explained in this way: He, the tenant, applied to Sir Charles Style to find him trees to enable him to increase the fruit plantation, corn at that time giving scarcely any return to the grower, and Sir Charles Style wrote to him to say that he did not choose to do it, but that if he chose to plant trees, any expense he might be at in raising them, because it is a number of years before you gain anything, he would allow him, and that gave rise to an allowance for the purchase of the trees, the tillage of the land, and the cultivating of them, and the pruning of them, and a variety of operations, the protecting them from cattle, and things of that kind, of £20 an acre.

1396. Then, if this land was to be displanted that money is entirely lost?—In every instance where we have destroyed that that has been attended with so much expense in creating, it must be a loss to the owner of the property.

1397- Will you state what you consider in common years to be a fair remunerating price for apples ?—I should be very glad to sell all my apples at home that I grow, of every description, upon the spot, for half-a-crown a bushel. I should be very glad to contract to deliver them in London for 4 s. a bushel, to take the whole.

1398. Do you give that answer with reference to the whole growth, or any particular description?—The whole. I would take the whole, one with another.

1399. At what time of the year do apples cease to be an article of general consumption, among the lower classes of people particularly —I think they continue among the lower classes of people as long as they last. The lower classes of people take apples that are partially decayed, or that are not in keeping so sightly as in general, or that are not saleable for any other purposes; but the article that curtails considerably the consumption of apples as fruit is oranges when they come in abundantly; then apples are used solely for culinary purposes, or nearly so.

1400. Are the apples that come at this time of the year the description of apples consumed by the lower classes of people ?—I think not so much so.

1401. The price of those is higher than the common culinary apples?—A sound apple at this season of the year is worth considerably more than apples are three or four months back.

1402. Then, as regards the general consumption of apples by the lower classes of people in this country, the price of those which are kept back to the end of the season is not of any great importance ?—No.

1403. Major Wood] What is the duty on oranges?—Seven shillings and sixpence the chest, 3 s. 9d. the half chest, 2 s. 6d. a box, or 15s. a thousand when they come in unusual packages. But I would make one observation with regard to taking the duty at all upon the value. I have reason to believe that the officers of the customs who are to pass goods entered at value are very tenacious of detaining them where they happen to be an article of a perishable nature, or in a perishable state; and, therefore, I should suppose that the persons who import apples are quite as much aware of that circumstance as I am, and that they put a nominal value upon them. The fact is, that the officer, if he speculates, speculates with regard to their being under value at his own peril; he has to represent the case to the Board of Customs; the Board of Customs, upon his representation, order them to be detained, taking the opinion of the solicitor first; then when those apples are detained there is a sort of ceremony and process to go through before they can be brought to sale, and everybody knows that apples are from day to day, and from hour to hour, becoming of less value; where they have travelled together they get bruised, and ten days or a fortnight in the case of a cargo of apples would make a very material difference in the value of them, for the persons who import them take them into the market and sell them immediately,

1404. Sir Edward Knatchbull] Do you consider that the fruit-growers are entitled, upon the ground of policy as well as justice, to a protection in the shape of a duty —I think we are, as a portion of the Queen's subjects, as much entitled to have a protecting duty on our produce of apples, as other portions of the Queen's subjects are upon other articles.

1405. Will you state to the Committee in what way, in your judgment, that can be most effectually given?—I know of no other way than by re-enacting the former duty.

1406. But if the duty was by weight instead of measure, would it be an improvement?—I do not think that would do so well.

1407. In your judgment, the re-enactment of the late system would be the best?—I think so; I think there is a reason for it in this way: the article is sold by the bushel, and therefore why should not the duty be taken in that way; we sell them in the country by the bushel, and in the market by the bushel.

1408. Chairman] Will not the perishable nature of the article, the importer being the party most interested in avoiding unnecessary detention, operate upon him not to run the risk of under-stating the value so as to subject himself to the detention of the goods, at the custom-house?—The importer puts his value upon the goods ; if they are detained, he gets back the duty that is paid upon them, and ten per cent, for freight and charges, and the sum they have been valued at.

1409. Which is the most interested in the preservation of the article, the owner or the custom-house officer?—I think they are alike interested; the custom-house officer has a portion of the seizure; the Crown takes a share, and the officer a share; but all the charges of the condemnation are paid first, and if the officer speculates as to the value, he does it at his peril; and if it falls out that there is a loss upon them, he does not get much credit with the Board for detaining goods where the Crown has rather lost than gained by it.

1410. Mr. Ewart] Is it a common thing to detain them?—I do not think it is; I think I recollect instances of perishable articles being detained, but I think in the case of fruit it is not very likely.

1411. Mr. Hodges] In point of fact, is not the duty so small that it is not likely to be an object of much care?—I believe the officers have taken every care in ascertaining the quantity.

1412. Do you know whether the duty, as now taken, at all pays the expense of the collection?—Unquestionably; it forms a part of the landing-waiter's general duty; no doubt that it would pay the expense of collection. The merchant takes his money to the clerk of the customs, and makes a declaration of the quantity of the goods, and pays the duty on them; the warrant goes into the hands of the landing-waiter, and he passes them upon it.

1413. You stated that rents must be reduced if the plantations are discontinued; do you mean that rents of land generally must be reduced, or that the rent arising from land appropriated to planting purposes must be reduced ? —I think it would have a tendency to reduce the rent of land in the fruit parishes generally, because the fruit plantations are mixed up with wood land, and arable land, and pasture land; and therefore, if I was to let a farm, I should say that the man taking it would, looking at the fruit land, say, This year I shall have the labour of destroying the plantation to cultivate something else, and I will not give so much for the farm as when that was perhaps the most productive part of the farm.

1414. Then all rents arising from the profit of growing fruit will of course cease?—Yes, or be materially diminished.

1415. Mr. Planta] In point of fact, shall you think it necessary to discontinue very considerably the growth of fruit if the duty remains as it is now?— Unquestionably; I do not think we could compete with the foreigner.

1416. And you would act upon that in your own case?—Undoubtedly.

1417. Mr. Ewart] Still you would continue some part in cultivation?—Yes, but I think we must diminish it very much ; and what we complain of is, that we are destroying that which has cost us a great deal of money, and also diminishing the labour of a redundant population.

1418. Chairman] Shall you do that till you have had the experience of a few more years ; you are aware that in the last year the alteration of duty has been coincident with a very small crop ?—I am afraid that will be the case this year.

1419. But will you not take the experience of some average years before you break up your orchards?—I think I should commence diminishing directly, if I did not see a prospect of the duty being restored.

1420. Do you apprehend that, with the reduction of the duty, you will not receive that which you stated just now is a remunerating price?—I think not; I do not think that the produce of our fruit plantations, speaking of apples, not cherries, would be sufficient to induce us to continue them in the way we are now ; we should gradually diminish them, and get rid of them.

1421. Mr. Ewart] What did you sell your last year's apples at?—We had not a great many ; 3s., 4s., 5s., and 6s. a bushel.

1422. That was a remunerating price?—We consider that a remunerating price for the apples we in general produce, but not a remunerating price for our growth that year.

1423. Mr. Bodges] Do you mean that the expense of plantation far exceeded what you got for your apples?—Yes.

1424. Mr. Ewart] I understand you to say that 4s. would be a good remunerating price ?—I should consider 4s. a fair contract for the grower for a period of years, taking all the fruit he grew.

1425- Mr. Villiers] I think I understood you to say that it would be impossible for the English grower to compete with the foreign grower at the present rate of duty; do you say that from your knowledge of the circumstances of foreign growers ?—I am speaking from the effect of the importation of fruit under a mere nominal duty, which amounts to scarcely anything.

1426. Is your opinion formed from the experience you have had last year? —Yes, it is.

1427. Entirely?—My opinion is formed from the results of last year; but if I had been told at any time when we had a protecting duty of 4s. that that duty was to be reduced to 2d. I should say at once that there is an end of our prospect of cultivating fruit with advantage; we must reduce our plantations or grub them up entirely. ,

1428. Do you say that, knowing the circumstances under which fruit is grown abroad?—I give that opinion from the great breadth of country that is open to our markets, the entire of France, Flanders, and Holland.

1429. And you think they grow fruit under such advantages, that they would always bring it in at a ruinous price to the English grower ?—I do think so, generally. ....

1430. Do you speak from your knowledge of any particular country?—No, I have no particular knowledge of any of the foreign countries; the conclusions I come to are from the importations which have taken place.

1431. Last year?—Last year.

1432. You think that a sufficient experience, considering it was a very bad year?—Yes; I think we should suffer as much in a good year as in a bad one, because we should grow fruit without having any market for it, except making cider of it; we never make cider in West Kent till the price is such that it will not give us anything beyond the expense of sending to market.

1433. That price would be lower if your crop was good?—Yes,

1434. Then you would be better able to compete with the foreign grower?— Yes, but we should compete with him at a loss to ourselves.

1435. Suppose the price at which he brings it to be as low as you expect ?— Yes, I think our fruit and the fruit he would send would reduce the price of apples so as to produce a loss in the greater part of the fruit grown in this country.

1436. But you have no reason to know at what price they can bring it?— No; it must depend upon the season and the quantity grown.

1437. Should you think the demand in this country for foreign fruit would raise the price in those countries where it is grown?—I think the tendency of repealing the protecting duty has been to take away the encouragement in this country, and to give it to foreigners.

1438. Do you think the increased demand in this country would raise the price abroad?—I think it would increase the cultivation abroad and diminish the cultivation here.

1439. You do not know what effect it has had during the last year in foreign countries?—No, I do not know.

1440. You do not know whether it has already raised the price?—No, I do not.

1441. Sir E. Knatchbull] Have you commuted your tithe in your parish?— No; about the time that I came to reside at Warternbury, the Living of Warternbury became vacant. The present vicar took possession of the living in 1827, and he made this proposal to the parish. He said, "I know what my predecessor received as his terrier-tithe; I am willing to receive £700, a year, and to enter into an agreement with you for that sum for seven years, and then you may grow what you please; as long as the whole parish pay me £700 a year I shall be satisfied, paying also my rates." The parish acceded to that, and two competent persons were appointed to set out how this £700 a year should be raised upon each man's occupancy. They set the value of the vicarial tithe £1 an acre upon fruit, and on hops 27s., and on other green crops smaller sums, so that the entire occupancy of the parish was rated, upon that scale of calculation, to produce the £700, and then the rates upon £700 were paid by the occupant in the same proportion.

1442. Mr. Filliers] The clergyman was relieved from the payment of rates? —Yes; the occupants paid the £700 a year, and the rates upon the £700.

1443. Mr. Hodges] Then the payment of the rates of the vicar was part of the bargain?—Yes; we have acted under that agreement up to the present time, and the Tithe Commutation Act binds us to come to a rentcharge upon our land, upon the basis of that agreement; but we have demurred; we are told that the Act of Parliament is positive; that we are to commute the tithe upon the land under an agreement which both parties willingly entered into. We, no doubt, contemplated that we could have nothing to complain of when we had been doing this ourselves; but here is an Act of Parliament at the ninth hour which destroys the very foundation upon which the tithe was calculated, and if we were to call in the same persons now to value the tithes in the parish of Warternbury, or any other parish, I apprehend they would say that the tithe upon apples was not worth more than 6s. or 7s. instead of 20s.

1444. Mr. Villiers] That estimate was made upon the value of land devoted to the growth of fruit?—Yes.

1445. And that was valued upon the quantity produced, and the price in the market?—It was valued at the price fruit land let for in that district, and the advantages of that land are now destroyed.

1446. Would it not have produced the same effect if a railroad had been opened in another direction that brought fruit from London to compete with fruit that had before come from that district?—A railroad might have produced disadvantages to us, but here is an express Act of Parliament, which alters the duty upon the article. The Legislature pass an Act for the commutation of tithe, and we are bound upon that Act to commute, upon the basis of the agreement, for seven years; and before we have commuted they pass another Act, destroying the very foundation upon which the valuation of our tithes has been made; and therefore it would be a hardship to us to enter into an agreement to subject ourselves to the charge of £1 an acre upon fruit land, when it is not worth above 6s. or 7s.

1447. But what would deteriorate the value of the fruit in your quarter would be, fruit coming from another quarter to compete with yours?—Yes, it would deteriorate ours, and make it an unfair bargain with the vicar to pay him tithes upon land that was not worth the sum paid; we have had some conversation upon that with the representative of the incumbent, and he says, " It is very true, in order to fix the rentcharge upon the land in the parish for vicarial tithes, you must have a re-valuation, and if your fruit plantations are not worth more than 4s. or 5s., instead of £1 an acre, they will be valued at that; but still we must have the £700." "How are you to get it?" "By spreading it over the whole vicarial cultivation of the parish, and charging an increased tithe upon the whole to raise it to £700."

1448. Would not the same consequences have followed if fruit had come from some part of this country to the market to which it had not been accustomed to come before?—Yes; any additional quantity above that which is grown in this district would have an effect.

1449. The same effect as the importation of foreign fruit?—Not the same effect, because I do not think the whole kingdom could have sent the quantity that has been imported into London from abroad.

1450. Sir E. Knatchbull] Suppose the fact to be as it has been put to you in the question, the agreement would be only for seven years?—Yes.

1451. But the agreement for tithe under the Commutation Act is for ever, is it not?—Yes, if we commute, it is a rentcharge upon the land.

1452. That is a distinguishing feature between the case put by Mr. Villiers and your case under the Tithe Commutation Act?—Yes.

1453- Mr. Hodges.'] You have been asked whether a railroad, introducing fruit from another district, would not have had the same effect as the alteration of the duty; in point of fact, the fruit coming by a railroad would be nothing more than an extension of the fruit plantation, with reference to the London market?—No.

1454. And the effect would be the same as the extending already in your own county of the fruit plantation ?—Unquestionably.

1455. And the result of that has been an abundant supply of home fruit to the market?—It has.

1456. But is it not quite another thing where an Act of Parliament affects the whole kingdom, those districts reached by the railroad as well as the districts that have been hitherto supplying the market?—No doubt our markets are affected in other ways by the railways, but we have never complained to the Legislature of that.