Ron Greib

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Locks <Steve Locks>

To: <rgreib@yahoo.com>

Sent: 16 December 1999 02:13

Subject: Signed Guestbook

Hello Ron,

You wrote in my "Leaving Christianity" guestbook.

<<A biblical question for the serious, knowledgeable, and sincere students of

the bible. Could a God of love create cancer cells, rattlesnakes, and

earthquakes?>>

Could you elaborate on this? I followed the link and found a short discussion

about your book but I would like to discuss this by email with the author if

you are willing.

I too think this is an important and often misunderstood subject and would

like to have an honest discussion about it. I would also like to put anything

said up on my website if we have an interesting discussion.

Maybe for starters you could tell me what you think about the points made by

some ex-Christians on my site here

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/seek.html#stockholm

and the context in which the verses such as those I have here

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/babble.html relate to a God of love.

I would be very grateful for an honest and focused discussion on this whole

subject.

Also, since you now have a link to your book on my site, will you consider a

link to my site from yours? I could make your link more prominent if you

wish.

Sincerely

Steve

----------------

Leaving Christianity (hundreds of deconversion stories):

www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/decon.html

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Locks <Steve Locks>

To: Ron Greib <rgreib@yahoo.com>

Sent: 16 December 1999 22:49

Subject: Re: Signed Guestbook

Thanks Ron for your reply.

I'm sorry you don't feel that you can discuss this by email. There are a lot

of books on Christian apologetics etc. that myself and fellow ex-Christians

have read. I indicated this on my story. You can also see a sample by

following the links on

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/books.html especially this one

http://www.underground-sound.com/books/books.html The Internet Infidels

http://www.infidels.org/ also link to good Christian apologist websites at

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/theism/christianity/select.html

I think I need some reason to think your book is particularly enlightening

before I buy it. Unfortunately a wide range of Christian apologetics in

books, on TV and radio, at church and on the Internet have left me with

no reason to think that anyone has a secret that those of us who do not

believe in Christianity really have missed. I also discuss this at

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/conversion_asymmetry.html and

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/seek.html It seems that the opposite

is the case in that it is rare for Christians to have a good grasp of

literature that is critical of Christianity. I could find no examples of

members of freethought/atheist etc. organisations who have converted to

Christianity and yet numerous examples of ministers, missionaries etc. who

are now atheists. As I say on my website (how many links have you been

down?) these people come from a full range of Christian backgrounds and

doctrinal positions. Your claim that we have rejected Christianity due to a

misunderstanding of scripture does seem rather unlikely given this fact.

The discovery that supernatural Christianity is untenable is like solving a

complex puzzle. There are many threads and I found them chiefly through

psychology, comparative religion, Christian history and philosophy amongst

other subjects. This lot really does demolish the credibility of Christianity

that a reinterpretation of scripture is unlikely to affect given the attempts

so far and the seriousness of the problems with Christianity.

Have you had any feedback from critics of Christianity on your book? If so I

would like to know what they said. If not and you would send me a

complimentary copy then I will gladly review it for you so that you will know

how much it convinces such a critic.

Anyway, if your book does go on a website then please remember me

and let me know the URL and I will check it out. If you won't dialogue now

then I would like to discuss it with you after that if you are then willing.

I will nevertheless do web searches for it every 6 months or so incase

you forget.

There are some other matters that perturb me meanwhile. I hope you will

bare with me and try to understand why these might be serious comments.

It is sad that, as I said on my website, often Christians are only willing to

"explain where we went wrong" rather than to open a true dialogue in the

spirit of finding out what each of us (both current Christians and

ex-Christians) have found. Why do I have to read your book first rather than

you listen to and dialogue with me? Why you first in such a demanding way?

It is also disturbing that the love of God and scripture takes a big book to

explain. Do you not think it possible that if it takes so long to attempt to

"justify God's ways to man" then there really is something unhealthy

about the relationship Christians have with their God? This is what the

discussions on my site about the Stockholm syndrome and an abused

wife's love for her husband are about. No matter what the level of abuse

and neglect, still excuses are made for the Christian God and the situation

is reinterpreted as "it's really because he loves us so much" etc. (See

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/seek.html )

Finally I see that despite my plea to Christian evangelists you do not appear

to have checked out my previous email correspondence. Your words here:

<< Steve, you are a good man, who is doing the

Lord's work. Keep up your good work for the Lord. I

wish you all of God's blessings. Your brother and

fellow traveler in Christ! - Ron >>

are, as I have said before, quite odd to write to someone who clearly

states on their website does not believe Christianity to be a good thing.

I would like to know what your intentions were in writing this.

You started off wishing me a merry Christmas and end up with what you

must surely appreciate is going to look like goading.

Also a number of ex-Christians have written to me privately expressing thanks

for putting up resources helpful in their recovery from Christianity. If you

read http://www.eclipse.co.uk/thoughts/slocks.htm and

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/quotes.html and follow up some of

the links you will soon see that, although the initial shock of the discovery

that Christianity is untenable is sometimes (not always) traumatic,

ex-Christians always report a better - and significantly more loving and

inclusive - life once Christianity is left. If this the Lord's work then I

would like to hear your explanation for this.

Anyway, all said and done I would like you to reconsider and attempt a

dialogue.

If the love of God is too complex to discuss outside of a big book, then

that's a poor reflection on Christianity.

Steve

----------------

Leaving Christianity (hundreds of deconversion stories):

www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/decon.html