David Kahn

Feedback discussions - David Kahn

asks "What would you think if I told you that for all your life you have held completely mistaken ideas about the reason for Christ's first appearance,

the purpose of the church, who is to be saved, and the overall plan of God for Mankind, and that the truth is nearly the opposite of what you have supposed?"

----- Original Message -----

From: David Kahn

To: <Steve Locks>

Sent: 03 March 2000 13:55

Subject: The truth about the bible

Dear Steve,

I have been reading your web pages. I am not finished reading them but

I sympathize with your sentiments about Christianity and its fundamental

problems, and I am touched by desire you said you had at one time to

believe in a god of love. If I understand correctly, your biggest

problems are with 1) the failure of its doctrine to demonstrate true

love for Humanity and in the unfair nature of the plan of salvation,

and 2) its failure to provide a satisfactory explanation for the

suffering and evil Mankind has had to endure.

Would it not be correct to say that for you, it appears that the God of

Christianity is not a loving god, because of his supposed plan to punish

non-believers of this life with death or torture?

I ask you to consider the following. What would you think if I told you

that for all your life you have held completely mistaken ideas about the

reason for Christ's first appearance, the purpose of the church, who is

to be saved, and the overall plan of God for Mankind, and that the truth

is nearly the opposite of what you have supposed? Furthermore, not only

you but nearly all "Christianity" so-called also are following these

wrong ideas about God and His plans? And the truth as I will expose to

you from the bible is far more wonderful and coherent than anything they

have taught you?

You are certainly going to be skeptical about this claim! You probably

think I have constructed something from my imagination, or that I am so

selective about bible passages that I am playing my own tune, etc. etc.

But I tell you I have been studying for 19 years, and I know of

thousands of others that have come to the same conclusions as I have,

and furthermore if you follow what I am going to show you below and

study it yourself you well see that there is an entire buried meaning to

the scriptures, which when uncovered will be seen to harmonize all

scriptures in a way that Christianity has been unable to touch. It only

remains for you to study and see for yourself if you are curious.

You said in one of your pages that you started out your walk in search

of a loving creator. Your skepticism has served you well in some ways,

but I ask only that you redirect your skepticism somewhat to where it

deserves be applied: into questioning all the fundamental teachings that

you have been instructed from the bible. These include the following:

1) That the followers of Jesus will be saved and taken to heaven, and

the unbelievers of this age will be punished in hell (not found in the

bible!)

2) That there is no hope of salvation for the great majority of mankind

who has lived on the earth and not known the name of Christ (this

statement is the opposite of the gospel)

3) That the the day of judgment to come upon mankind in the day of the

Lord is a bad thing for all of humanity except Christians (judgment has

always been a good thing to have in the land; it was always good for

Israel to have judges, and also what would happen to our society without

any law enforcement or judicial system, as imperfect as it is?)

4) That the earth will be literally burned up and everyone in it

destroyed (consider: "The Earth abideth forever"; "the desire of all

nations shall come"; "the earnest expectation of the creation

waiteth...")

You are probably sure right now that the bible says these things

somewhere, and perhaps you are thinking of the verses now. But have you

really looked at them, and have you done Greek and Hebrew word studies

on them to see if the suggested meaning is really what you thought?

Let's take a look at a few scriptures to see if we can prove some of the

statements above. For instance, what does the bible say the Gospel is?

First of all we need to know who the seed of Abraham is in the New

Testament.

Gal 3:29 says

"And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according

to the promise."

So the followers of Christ are the seed of Abraham; adopted into

Christ's inheritance.

And here is where the Gospel is defined by Paul: Gal 3:8

"And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen

through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee

shall all nations be blessed."

He is referring back to Gen. 22:18, 18:18, 26:4, 12:3, and 28:4 where

God gave Abraham this promise: "And in thy seed shall all the nations

of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice."

With me so far? But wait a minute! How can this be reconciled with the

popular view that the followers of Christ will be saved, and the rest of

the earth will be punished?

If the seed are Christ and his followers, then that is mutually

exclusive of "all the nations of the earth", because it says the seed

will bless all the nations of the earth, and certainly that does not

mean that the seed will bless itself!

So in what way, according to conventional teaching about Christ, will

the followers of Christ bless all the nations of the earth? It can't be

by giving them the truth about Christ, because by rejecting the truth

they supposedly condemn themselves. How is the church blessing the

nations of the earth as they all go down into hell? What kind of

blessing is that?

I hope it is clear that this Gospel is mutually exclusive with the

message taught by Christianity today.

The original Gospel states that the rest of mankind that receives a

blessing, not punishment. (Are you wondering why you have probably

never heard this message? there's a reason.)

Yet Paul was very emphatic in clearly defining this message. If you

want to know more about this blessing, there is much more information.

Jer 31:33 "...this shall be the covenant that I will make with the

house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in

their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God,

and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man

his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for

they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of

them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will

remember their sin no more."

AND

Acts 3:21 "...the times of restitution of all things, which God hath

spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began."

AND

1 Tim 2:6 "Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due

time." (Christ's ransom paid the price of redemption for all mankind,

providing to all a future opportunity for life whether they believe in

him in this life or not.)

AND

Dan 2:44 "And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up

a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be

left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these

kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever." (The kingdom of God shall be for

the same people who lived in all the prior kingdoms on earth; i.e. ALL

THE NATIONS OF THE EARTH as above).

AND

many more verses that I don't have time right now to bring up.

But let's consider an example of a verse that is typically given as

proof of God's plan to punish the non believing:

John 5:28 "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all

that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth;

they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that

have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

Here the word damnation is a very poor choice of translation. The Greek

word is krisis, a better meaning for which is "trial". When mankind is

resurrected, those who were not true followers of Christ will receive a

trial or testing for life on earth under favorable conditions, ruled by

one government according to the principles of love as taught by Christ

to his disciples. Judgment will not be based on the sins of the past

life but on the actions in that life (see Jer. 31:29-30).

All in that kingdom will all receive correct instruction of the things

of God, and there will not be a multitude of religions and conflicting

beliefs but the truth will be made clear. This kingdom will provide for

mankind's needs as it was in the original garden. Isa. 35:5 "Then the

eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be

unstopped. 6 Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of

the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams

in the desert." Under these conditions they will ultimately be tested

for their willingness to love and obey God, and will be able to draw on

their experience of the previous life, by which they can compare and

contrast a world without divine guidance and understanding and love to a

world where those things are abundant. Without question the majority of

mankind will choose to obey God and live in harmony with their fellows

on the earth. But apparently there will be a few who will choose to

reject this order and rebel from it, even after receiving full

understanding of God. It is those few will not be allowed to continue

their existence in this universe. But that episode is long into the

future, after Christ has reigned on earth for a thousand years.

So you see there will be a trial for life for mankind in the next age.

The true church will avoid that trial, opting to have instead their

trial for life in this age.

Which brings us to your probable next question: What went wrong with

Christianity, and why has God allowed them to become so deluded with

themselves? There are answers to these questions! To put it briefly,

it was according to God's plan that the truth be largely hidden from

this world during this age. Only those who are so fortunate as to be

permitted by God may have it revealed to their eyes. The eyes of the

world are closed to it. That is according to plan. This is NOT the age

of salvation for mankind! Only a few will be selected for the body of

Christ, the great majority of mankind, "christian" in name or not, will

receive their opportunity for life later. Those with Christ will be

busy during the next age setting up Christ's kingdom on earth.

Everything is clearly going by this plan, as foretold long ago by Jesus

(see the parable of the tares and wheat matt 13:24-30; also see matt

13:12-15).

As far as the visible signs of the return of Christ, we have witnessed

the regathering of the Jews to Israel. Charles Russell predicted that

over 120 years ago, based on prophecy of course. This event is one of

the preliminaries to the kingdom being established on earth, which will

first come through the Jews as in Jeremiah 31:31.

One thing that is important to mention is that this whole view makes

sense only is man is perceived as a free moral agent. Man has some

choice in his actions, and will have an even better choice in the

kingdom, where he will have been fully informed through experience about

the nature and consequences of evil and sin. Yet it will be up to man

to choose life and obedience to God. God could have stopped his

creation with the apes and monkeys; these creatures are obedient to

their programming. But He didn't want robots; he wanted people in his

own image who could freely choose to love and obey -- or not.

On the permission of evil: We can see that this whole arrangement (the

fall of man through Adam's transgression and the consequent experience

with sin, suffering and death in darkness, is allowed to happen for the

benefit of building up mankind's experience. When all mankind is

recovered from the fall, they will be able to start over again under

Christ (the mediator between God and Man) and apply the lessons of their

experience by having the wisdom to avoid the recurrence of sin. I

believe that every bad experience of this life, though the meaning isn't

always clear, will be given new meaning in the next age when God's love

is known and understood.

I am sure that you probably have many questions and doubts about all

this and especially about whether the rest of the bible agrees with it.

I have not found very much in all the errancy sites so far that I have a

problem with; most of them simply show a complete lack of understanding

of the bible. But I can go into those things later.

Please check these sites for some reading material:

http://www.godspromises.org/volume1/index.htm Highest recommendation!

and http://www.biblestudents.net/manna/manna.htm

Here are some other related sites:

http://www.coastnet.com/~merlin1874/

http://www.chicagobible.org/believe.html

http://reslight.addr.com/index.html

http://www.biblestudents.com/

I hope you find these thoughts helpful and hope to hear from you soon.

I am sure you might have many thoughts on this.

Peace

David Kahn

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Locks <Steve Locks>

To: David Kahn

Sent: 03 March 2000 21:42

Subject: Re: The truth about the bible

Dear David,

Think of me as you will, but you need to read more of my website. I'm afraid

you are way off the mark about me. I occasionally rise to debate where I

feel it would be interesting, but in this case I have already largely

discussed your ideas, so I will not repeat myself by getting into a lengthy

exchange.

I will leave it to you if you wish to think about my true opinions, but bear

in mind that, as I say in my deconversion story, "it was the reading of

philosophy, psychology, history, biblical criticism and comparative religion

that raised such serious questions for religious beliefs that eventually the

bubble had to burst." My discussion of hell and other biblical cruelties was

not the lynch pin by any means, just part of the end. As I have already said

in feedback, I would have left Christianity even if the bible had no cruel

passages because I discovered that Christianity does not correspond with the

real world.

You can read more detail on my feedback pages and other writings.

So since your ideas about me are based on:

<< If I understand correctly, your biggest

problems are with 1) the failure of its doctrine to demonstrate true

love for Humanity and in the unfair nature of the plan of salvation,

and 2) its failure to provide a satisfactory explanation for the

suffering and evil Mankind has had to endure. >>

I'm afraid you don't understand me correctly at all. Also none of your 4

"fundamental teachings" where amongst what I was taught. I would have

thought that should have been obvious from my deconversion story. As I said

on my site, my favourite theologian was Bonhoeffer, and I was a follower of

Thomas Merton. Not that I thoroughly understood them but my attitude

should be clear from that. Maybe I do need to make it clearer.

Bare in mind that I was a very liberal Christian and a universalist. As

I said on my site, I did not believe in hell, and - like you - thought that

hell talk and cruel passages in the bible meant other than what they

seemed. Nevertheless, it still remains unconscionable that a real

God would allow the harm that has already happened. It's too late

to mop it up - "all will be well, and all will be well, and all will be

well" as Julian of Norwich said. Read my writings for my reflections

on that. Also remember that these are largely thoughts that have

struck me since I left Christianity and were not the main reasons I

left at all.

I am glad you are more universalist than many Christians, it reflects well on

your sympathetic nature. Nevertheless, you wrote:

<< But apparently there will be a few who will choose to

reject this order and rebel from it, even after receiving full

understanding of God. It is those few will not be allowed to continue

their existence in this universe. >>

Even this is too cruel for me. As I said already, to someone else who told me

I had made an historical error about hell:

"Doesn't strike me as particularly nice either. I think given the resources

of divinity and eternity that re-education and rehabilitation of the

"unrepentant" (not to mention a readjustment of seratonin levels and

the dodgy genes that influence behaviour) would be better behaviour."

Also (and again I am repeating what is already on my site) you say:

<< have you done Greek and Hebrew word studies

on them to see if the suggested meaning is really what you thought? >>

Yes, some. Most importantly though, I know of other ex-Christians who have

done this extensively, this really should be obvious from my site. But as I

say, if this is what it takes to find out that "God is love" then the effort

is like that of an abused wife who makes exhaustive rationalisations to

excuse her husband. Real love is not so difficult to know. This certainly

isn't the kingdom of God that "prostitutes and tax-collectors" are meant

to be entering before us.

You wrote:

<< I hope it is clear that this Gospel is mutually exclusive with the

message taught by Christianity today. >>

So many times I have been told that the majority of other Christians are

wrong but "this" opinion is "true" Christianity.

Also you must read what I have already discussed about the Adam and Eve story

in previous emails (some very long) to see why your email is just a fantasy

to me. Even when I was a Christian, this is the sort of bizarre view of the

world that alerted me to something being seriously wrong with Christianity.

Finally:

You said << Everything is clearly going by this plan >>

Then there is no need to worry about me, or the others whose deconversion

stories I link to.

I am sorry if any of this comes over as abrupt, but as I said on my website

evangelists must read my other writings before writing to me, and your email

shows little evidence of having been far into my website. Otherwise I get too

much repetitive mail from people trying to debate me on similar points which

is not very interesting. There are so many other very interesting things I am

currently doing in relatively little spare time.

Sorry, but I wish you well none the less,

Steve

----------------

Leaving Christianity: www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/decon.html