Ashley Coogan

----- Original Message -----

From: Ashley M Coogan

To: Steve Locks

Sent: 21 September 2000 18:37

Subject: your website

Steve-

Hi. My name is Ashley and I am a journalism student at the University of

Alabama. I am writing an article about religion on the Internet; I ran across

your website while doing research.

I would like to thank you for being so honest and vulnerable about your

attempts at religion and your struggles to understand God. I know that you

must have opened yourself up to a lot of criticism; I appreciate the stand

that you take for something that you so strongly believe in.

Now, I would like to apologize to you, because I feel that you have searched

for a long time, and that the church- as the body of Christ- did not take the

time to make God real to you. I am what most people consider religious, but I

would like to tell you why I don't believe in that term at all. "Religion"

just means man's attempts to put God in a box, and all the rules and

regulations that have evolved since the beginning of time. I believe that God

is bigger than all of that stuff and all the ways that we have messed His

message up.

I am going to sign off, because I don't want to impose on you. I think that

what you have to say is important; I would love to hear any thoughts you would

want to share on this.

Ashley

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Locks

To: Ashley M Coogan

Sent: 21 September 2000 20:29

Subject: Re: your website

Dear Ashley,

Thank you for your concern and kind words.

I have already discussed your points to some extent here

which you should read if you haven't already.

To elaborate, I wasn't "let down" by any of the Christians I knew, church or

anyone. Rather private research led me to the conclusion that the central

Christian claims are not true. Also, like you, as a Christian I viewed

"religion" as "Man's fallen attempt to respond to God" and that the proper way

to know God was "as Adam did" (I meant Adam figuratively, since I was not a

fundamentalist). I remember saying this at my "home group" and there were nods

and murmurs of approval. It is also something I got from Bonhoeffer - his book

"Ethics" if I remember correctly.

I was also into the classic Christian mystics, "The Cloud of Unknowing,"

Thomas A Kempis - "the Imitation of Christ," St. John of the Cross - the

"Dark Night of the Soul" etc. and like you thought that any attempt to

imprison God in our definitions of him was bound to failure - he was more

lively and interesting than that! So, no I did not box him in by any means. It

happened like I said in my story. I read a lot of philosophy, psychology

history, biblical criticism and comparative religion etc. and Christianity

became impossible for me to believe.

If you read my long discussion with Dr. Anthony Garrett I also discuss much

about how believing things is not a choice.

dr-antony-garrett

<< I believe that God is bigger than all of that stuff and all the ways that

we have messed His message up. >>

So what then is his message? I think any attempt at formulating one ends up

with great problems and the simple fact is that there really is no god at all.

<< I am going to sign off, because I don't want to impose on you. I think that

what you have to say is important; I would love to hear any thoughts you would

want to share on this. >>

Okay, thanks for your thoughts, but please do follow my links if you have not

already, (just to save me some time!)

Best wishes and thanks again.

Steve

----------------

Leaving Christianity:

----- Original Message -----

From: Ashley M Coogan

To: Steve Locks

Sent: 04 October 2000 20:57

Steve-

I'm not sure if you'll remember me; I wrote you a few weeks ago about your

website. I am doing an article for a journalism class at the University of

Alabama on religion and the internet. Your site has been one of the more

interesting ones by far, and I would love to quote you in my article if you

could answer a few of my questions.

-What lead you to start a website dedicated to leaving Christianity?

-What has the public response to your site been?

-How do you feel the Internet has affected your ability to make your viewpoint

known?

-Have your beliefs affected others (that you know of) because of the

information they got off your website?

-What is your opinion of the manner in which the Internet will affect

organized religion?

I understand that some or all of these questions could be answered on your

site, but I would like to be able to quote you directly. Thanks so much for

your help; I believe that you have a viewpoint that is not voiced enough and I

would love to be able to include anything you could share.

Ashley Coogan

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Locks

To: Ashley M Coogan

Sent: 06 October 2000 23:56

Subject: Your questions

Dear Ashley,

Thank you for your interest. I do remember you and am flattered by your

interest and questions.

I am not an expert though, just an interested person, so I hope you won't give

my particular thoughts undue weight.

You may also be interested in my guest essay here

http://www.eclipse.co.uk/thoughts/slocks.htm which is a summary of my

researches.

<< -What lead you to start a website dedicated to leaving Christianity? >>

Initially I just put my story and a couple of previous discussions online to

refer people to when on debate lists (an example of such a debate/discussion

is here seek and ye shall find?). Others were

doing this and it seemed the polite thing to do, rather than repeat lengthy

arguments. Mainly though, I felt I had accrued a lot of useful links from my

time on the "extian" (i.e. ex-Christian) mailing list and my reading of the

ex-tian archives. There are already many sites about people leaving

Christianity and collections of testimonies around the Internet, but to my

knowledge no central place that links to them all. I eventually thought I

could carve a niche by providing a meta-resource to all these collections

of stories. It was not my intention to provide very much in terms of

arguments against Christianity, as there are already so many sites

doing this. I became more concerned to provide support for new

de-converts from Christianity. Virtually all of my arguments given against

Christianity have been shaken out of me by Christians during feedback and

other discussions.

The Internet is one of the few places where those who leave Christianity can

turn easily for help and find people who have already been through this

leaving process. Often new deconverts feel that they are in a very lonely

situation as there is nobody around who will sympathetically listen to their

thoughts. Christians are almost always only interested in "finding out where

we went wrong." Therefore it can be a great thrill and relief to find others

with similar stories to see how normal ones feelings are and to see the

healthy lives of those who are years further on.

<< -What has the public response to your site been? >>

Interesting and wide ranging! Mainly I tried to imagine what I would be

interested in when I was a doubting Christian and shortly after I left

Christianity. So I have been pleased to see that about a third of people who

write share some of their experiences and often comment on how pleased they

are to find so many resources from similar people (imagine the scenario of

deconverting from Christianity in the bible belt in the midst of a very

religious family!) Quite a few just write short thank you notes.

Another third or so used to write emails to explain where I have gone wrong.

Although most are reasonably polite, some are quite aggressive with the caps

lock key on, sometimes with threats about what will happen to me in the

hereafter. I have managed to reduce this by use of the email page which

people have to read before they can find my address (as you will know!)

Since then this sort of thing has reduced significantly, but not disappeared.

The rest are somewhat like yours, and are probably the most interesting - i.e.

reflective emails with genuine questions. Some just want to chat, bounce some

ideas around or ask for further information. I have had a few long lasting and

in depth discussions with some of these people, but I have not directly put

examples on my site, rather just weave the odd insight gained into other

discussions.

If you want some examples of the things people write see my guestbook and

feedback. These are only examples though, because it gets too repetitive

to put them all up. If you want some more personal, or scary ones, then let

me know (I will have to keep the personal ones anon though).

<< -How do you feel the Internet has affected your ability to make your

viewpoint known? >>

Fantastically! I can talk about what I want to my hearts content. It is good

therapy, very cathartic and a great way to learn - discussing ideas which

often lead to more research. Until I was online this was restricted to putting

ideas into notebooks, and the occasional conversations with friends (usually

in the pub!)

It is not just about making my viewpoint known though, as discussing on NG's,

mailing lists and private email lets me test my ideas and compare experiences.

It's the closest I can find to getting some peer review.

However, I don't feel these are "my" ideas particularly, rather I am reporting

the wider picture as I see it out there. The wealth and variety of experience

and reflection in some of the stories I have read is quite enlightening. There

are very few ideas I have that I haven't found expressed in one way or

another by other people during my time surfing, reading and discussing. I think

some are attracted by discussions of emotions as well as ideas, which

is why I have left my story on the first page. I almost relegated it to a link, but I

found that so many people responded to it that it was obviously capturing

people's imagination, so I left it up to give something substantial and

personal on the first page. Also I think casual surfers often don't go much

further than a home page, so it's good to have something to chew on.

[Note (31st Oct 2000), I have since relegated it to a link].

Finally, I not only want to share thoughts and discoveries, but also to learn

as much as I can. I frequently surf on using my own website as a starting

point.

<< -Have your beliefs affected others (that you know of) because of the

information they got off your website? >>

That is more difficult to be sure of. Some have written to say they find it

encouraging to see similar people and feel less alone in a very Christian

society because of the resources I link to. Others say they finally feel

understood and realise they are sane! That was the main reason for my

site once it was a reasonable size, so I'm glad it seems to work to that

extent. I don't know if I've really influenced anyone to seriously question

Christianity though - I think it takes many factors to do that, although from

feedback like Jim Moretz's my ideas, or similar from others, may have caused

some reflection.

I have definitely caused some to change opinion through private email, not to

the extent of abandoning Christianity, but to the extent of changing minor

views and I did get one person to accept evolution in private discussion.

These are hard work though, and I'm still trying to weave some of these

discussions into articles for my site (but where's the time!) Of course others

have also influenced me - particularly in understanding the nature of

fundamentalism, since I was used to quite a laid back and moderate Christian

atmosphere when I was a Christian.

<<-What is your opinion of the manner in which the Internet will affect

organized religion? >>

There is no doubt that on an individual level people leave Christianity due to

what they read and argue about on the Internet. An example is Peter Kirby, who

went on to become the owner of the "Xtianity" mailing list (a list for

discussing if Christianity is true).

www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/individual_decon_stories.html#peterkirby

Other examples are Chris Ashton

http://www.u.arizona.edu/~cashton/atheism/page8.html

Anon http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/tsr/tsr6.html

Wayne VanWeerthuizen http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/tsr/tsr10.html

I have discussed this on the "Xtianity" mailing list and have seen it

discussed elsewhere. It seems that on a number of debating forums

(alt.atheism, alt.bible.errancy, Xtianity etc.) people occasionally deconvert,

but nobody could think of an example of a conversion to Christianity on a

debating panel.

As for the larger question of what will happen to organised religion, that is

too difficult for me! Nevertheless, I think religion will probably continue to

change and also have revivals, slumps, reactions and transformations for

a long time. It still amazes me that there are fundamentalists in the modern

world, but even so they are a long way from the fundamentalists of Martin

Luther's time. Likewise any fundamentalists and other religious folk of a

few hundred years time are likely to look very heretical to today's Christians

(but then many current Christians look heretical to other contemporary

Christians!). How much will be due to the Internet, I am not sure, although

my guess is that if people are aware of the level of debate and research

that has been done, it will be harder to merely accept what is traditionally

taught from the pulpit. Anyone can now read the deliberations of scholars

like those of the Jesus Seminar or the Sea of Faith - these things are no

longer only accessible to those at liberal theological seminaries - see

study resources

It is also much easier to track down and buy their previously obscure books.

From reading testimonies this is exactly what happens to many people - they

research and loose faith. I am not so sure though that most people have the

energy and inclination for so much research. The information may be out

there and easily accessed now, but you can't make people read it or even be

interested!

I wrote this in my "guest essay" at

http://www.eclipse.co.uk/thoughts/slocks.htm

"In our modern age with ease of access to information many of us are still

bought up to believe the unexamined religion of our culture. It is not routine

at church or school to research the historical claims of Christianity or to

critically examine its dogmas. The fact that this examination has even

occurred is rarely known, neither is the extent of the criticism appreciated.

What percentage of Christians have done their "extra-Christian homework" and

have well thumbed critical books on their bookshelves? Most study is

devotional or inclined towards "what is God saying here?" Indeed, most

Christians are surrounded by other Christians, seldom in an environment

promoting critical examination of beliefs. It is usually left to the personal

research of the curious amongst us, or the chance discovery of a student of

religion to stumble across the historical, psychological, philosophical,

anthropological and sociological problems of Christianity."

It would be interesting to know how many (or what proportion of) people are

becoming Christians due to what they read on the Internet. More interesting

would be the influence on those who give equal time to both sides of the

argument. However I doubt people really give truly equal time unless they are

going through a transitionary period and are trying to initially find out and

assess what both sides have to say. Even then, I suspect when committed

but doubtful, people read opposing arguments with fascination but nevertheless

some trepidation. Maybe you could tell me from your researches when your

results are in.

Personally, I still read Christian apologetics, to see what they are currently

saying and how strong or weak I find it, but admittedly not as much as the

other side, which I find more interesting and enlightening. I have had a belly

full of Christian apologetics over the years, but keep my hand in to be fair

and up to date!

<< Thanks so much for your help >>

Thank you for asking. As you know, people love talking about themselves and

their ideas, so you were bound to get a response! :-)

<< I believe that you have a viewpoint that is not voiced enough and I

would love to be able to include anything you could share. >>

It's kind of you to say so. If you don't mind, what was it that attracted you

to asking my opinion? What did you find on or via my site that interested

you or was of value? I would like to develop or at least think about the parts

that are found most thought provoking by a range of people.

If you could send me a summary of the results of your researches then I

would be very interested to read what you find and to hear any of your other

comments.

I hope that lot is of use to you and good luck in your project.

Regards,

Steve

----------------

Leaving Christianity