Chris

----- Original Message -----

From:Chris

To: Steve Locks

Sent: 01 December 2001 20:49

Subject: Thanks for your web page.

Hi Steve

I had to write and let you know that I am very grateful that you have taken

the trouble to make your web page so that those of us who are hoping to

leave behind the brainwashing of years have somewhere to go. Is it unusual

that although I am convinced that I can no longer believe without

reservation, I still feel rather guilty (sinful?) reading anti-Christian

material?

I have been struggling to believe for about 35 years, since I was a

teenager, having had a variety of 'spiritual' experiences (both religious

and non-religious). I always believed that it was due to my

sin/doubt/whatever that I never had the orgasmic experiences of my

charismatic friends, nor the 'personal relationship' of which they speak.

I always found it difficult to distinguish between my own thoughts and "the

leading of the Spirit" and impossible to have a relationship with a silent,

invisible person(s?) whose only means of communication is on a subliminal

level. As for fathoming out which member of the 'Trinity' I was supposed

to be addressing, well I never did. When I asked 'mature Christians' they

said it didn't matter. It did to me.

I feel like my gay sister must have felt when she 'came out'. She said the

feelings had always been there. She too was a 'born again' Christian and

prayed and fasted to extremes that God would cure her. He didn't. She is

now an unbeliever. My doubts have always been there. I remember querying

the cursing of the fig tree, Jesus' use of a whip on the moneychangers, the

careless way he addressed his mother, the fact that both he and Paul

appeared to expect the 'end times' to be very soon, 2000 years ago. I was

pleased to see from your web page that I am not the only one! I had the

added burden of guilt because of a failed marriage and other 'sins' which I

won't bore you with here. I know that I would never ask another person to

stay in a relationship which was causing them pain and I would never do it

again myself, so how could I truly be a Christian when the church teaches

that marriage is for life?

The realisation that I maybe do not even believe in God, and certainly not

in the vengeful Christian God, is a shock to me. I still think I see the

handiwork of a 'creator' in the universe but cannot reconcile a God of love

with the biblical God, whom we are to told to believe, forgives *all*sin

(including the rape and murder of a child?) except the sin of unbelief, for

which we will fry eternally. Isn't it odd that the rest of the believers

appear to see no such absurdity? Except that the very act of questioning

one's belief is not allowed, is frowned upon and discouraged. There is no

bible study for asking awkward questions.

I agree with you that leaving that all behind is liberating. Scary, but

exhilarating. I realise that this is probably all there is and life is so

much more precious because of that. I can no longer be blasé, relying on

living forever and doing things later. Now is all the time we can be sure

of. I also find other people, even strangers, easier to appreciate and I

am aware that previously there was a barrier because of my faith. There is

a subconscious feeling of superiority when one is a Christian, one of the

elite, the untouchable. Well not any more. I can continue the

conversation I started last month with a Buddhist friend and really

appreciate his point of view without secretly believing myself to be party

to privileged information whilst wondering whether I should really be

talking to him at all lest some demon should take possession of my soul for

such a sin (well you know what I mean).

I wonder how many religious leaders get to the top and realise that their

doubts are greater than their faith but feel they must continue because

their livelihood and social standing depend on it? The Christian church is

a clever mix of psychological tactics. Having got you in, with a promise

of 'free' salvation, they keep you there with psychological blackmail. To

doubt is an unforgivable sin. Where else will you go? Who else "loves you

as you are but loves you too much to leave you like that"? The more I

think about it, the more I realise that there is absolutely no proof of the

existence of God and no evidence of his supposed love for us. People who

have never believed have lived lives much the same as mine, with the same

random mix of 'blessings' and misfortunes. My decisions and actions have

been no better or worse than those of the great majority of 'unsaved'

people of a similar social background. The Christian church is guilty of

the tricks used by the cults which it purports to detest (Moonies, Mormons,

Jehovah's Witnesses et alia) Offer them love and brainwash them to believe

they will be damned if they leave. I can't believe I have fallen for this

for so long. I think it is because I couldn't face the thought of there

being nothing after death, or worse, that I would be damned for eternity.

Now I am not bothered. Either there is a loving God, as witnessed by all

those near death experience people, or there is nothing and it will be no

worse than falling asleep. Unfortunately I won't be able to let you know,

should I get there before you.

My only remaining problem is that I am left with a Christian name which is

now less appropriate than it might have been. Oh, and who do I thank for a

beautiful day? I asked my Buddhist friend and he seemed bemused that I

should consider thanking anybody.

with best wishes

Christine.

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Locks

To: Chris

Sent: 02 December 2001 21:09

Subject: Re: Thanks for your web page.

Hi Chris,

Thanks very much for your thoughtful email. A number of times people have

remarked that just by reading the thoughts of others they see their own

thoughts and experiences expressed so well. For me, I had that experience

in reading your email, it was almost as if I had written it myself!

<< Is it unusual that although I am convinced that I can no longer

believe without reservation, I still feel rather guilty (sinful?) reading

anti-Christian material? >>

It's not at all unusual. I've seen it many times on the ex-Christian

mailing list and experienced it myself. I left Christianity 16 years ago

and still occasionally get those feelings, although admittedly a lot less

than I used to. I think it was about 2 years until I stopped being

constantly subliminally scared that I was doing something terrible by no

longer being able to accept Christianity. I think the guilty/worried

feeling left mostly due to the emotional realisation that being punished

for ones thoughts is not good. But the old brainwashing is hard to shake

off. Christians are usually taught that belief is a choice - otherwise

where is the justice in being rewarded for it or punished for not having

it? However it became apparent to me that not only is it psychologically

impossible to believe something you don't believe, but it's neither moral

or responsible to attempt to force oneself to believe things. I discussed

this mostly with Dr. Garrett.

It is no wonder that plenty of Christians have doubts as they live with

so much cognitive dissonance. Nevertheless the feelings that later take

over are, as you mentioned, exhilaration at so much interesting material

to find out, freedom to really think in an unfettered way and connection

with others, even if you disagree with them. I loved your description:

<< There is a subconscious feeling of superiority when one is a Christian,

one of the elite, the untouchable. Well not any more. I can continue the

conversation I started last month with a Buddhist friend and really

appreciate his point of view without secretly believing myself to be party

to privileged information whilst wondering whether I should really be

talking to him at all lest some demon should take possession of my soul

for such a sin... >>

Exactly! I felt like I was in a secret and spiritually insightful superior

club. Even somewhat heroic for daring to be a Christian in a largely

secular society (living in the UK that is!)

<< I always believed that it was due to my sin/doubt/whatever that

I never had the orgasmic experiences of my charismatic friends,

nor the 'personal relationship' of which they speak. >>

As Robert Price remarked nobody had even heard of "having a personal

relationship with Christ" and "inviting him into your heart" until the

German Pietist movement of the Eighteenth Century. So I wouldn't worry,

it is a manufactured relationship. Catholics will have deep devotion to

the Virgin Mary, whereas other Christians would balk at such feelings.

Ex-Moonie leader Steve Hassan spoke of his overpowering love for

the Reverend Moon, even to the extent that he would have killed for him.

In my opinion it is all manufactured based on what you are supposed

to be feeling - Christians would be having personal relationships with

St. Peter if that is what they were told was important. As most of us

painfully discover it is quite possible to fall in love with somebody who

does not love you or who is quite a different person than the one you

thought they were. Feelings of love are sadly no guarantee that you

are correctly perceiving the focus of your love.

An ex-nun friend told me that she gradually came to realise that a

relationship in which one of the partners does not talk to you is not a

real or healthy relationship at all. Add to this the rationalizations

Christians have to make to justify hell and the "vibrant, dynamic"

relationship they sometimes report with Jesus is horribly similar

to the deep attachment captives sometimes develop in prison camps (the

"Stockholm Syndrome.") After the holocaust (not to mention a host of

other atrocities and natural disasters), there should be no numinous and

loving feeling left for such neglectful deities.

See feedback/mcfall for some more ranting on this one!

<< As for fathoming out which member of the 'Trinity' I was supposed

to be addressing, well I never did. When I asked 'mature Christians' they

said it didn't matter. It did to me. >>

Coincidentally I was musing over an old memory of that problem just

yesterday. Until I went to university, the Christians around me discussed

God. At university I was exposed to Christians who talked about Jesus all

the time. Seemed like an unnecessarily obstacle as I was doing very well

before the extra theological personage had to be in the forefront all the

time :-> Anyway, I once saw the following on the errancy newsgroup which

amused me. Here is the snippet:

It's very simple. Jesus not only IS God, he is also the SON of

God, who unfortunately never had a wife and never had sex, except

possibly for the Holy Ghost part of God, who supposedly somehow

impregnated Mary, but this didn't involve sex, because Mary was still

a virgin, but this is getting off the point. Anyway God as a whole

however is really a triad, usually called the trinity, it being of

course, like all good combinations, greater than the sum of its parts,

God thereby being the ultimate synergism, which however does not apply

here because each part is also the whole thing, so the whole thing is

less than the sum of its parts, except that it's also equal to the sum

of its parts because the sum is the sum, period. Now Jesus as I said

before both is and is not all of God, the latter fact being

demonstrated by his asking, at a certain crucial point (no pun

intended), why the rest of God, that is, the father part, had

abandoned the Jesus, or son, part of God. Jesus also kept referring

to himself as the son of man, which seems to imply that man and God

are the same thing, except the Bible says this is not so, so the son

of man designation is not exactly clear, unlike all the other really

obvious stuff I explained above.

My own feeling is that the Trinity was chosen because the other

choices, Monity, Binity, and Quinity (wait, that's five), sound silly,

in fact all together sounding like a team of comedians.

Anyway, remember, this is Monotheism.

<< I feel like my gay sister must have felt when she 'came out'. >>

That too is very common. Some gay ex-Christians have explicitly remarked

on the similarity they felt in "coming out" of the closet about their

homosexuality and their "coming out" about their lack of belief in

Christianity. It was also interesting to note that on the ex-Christian

mailing list, although there were diverse opinions on abortion,

child-rearing, gun-control etc. etc. there was unanimity on acceptance of

homosexuality, despite the fact that many (not all) condemned it as

Christians. Homophobia is one of those things which appears to be taught

by the certain large elements of the church, because it appears so

strikingly absent in ex-Christians once the biblical reasons for

condemning it no longer hold influence. However I want to be quick to

point out that there are plenty of gay-friendly Christians (I was one,

although not when a young teenager), one of my university housemates

was secretary both of the University Anglicans and "gaysoc." There are

also very pro-gay Christian groups such as the UU's and the MCC (See

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_met.htm). There are also

homophobic atheists, but I am yet to meet a homophobic ex-Christian.

<< My doubts have always been there. >>

Although plenty of ex-Christians (and present Christians) have always had

some doubts from my encounters and reading, some go through a "complete

certainty" period. I think though that some doubt is common, although

there are plenty of cult-like thought stopping techniques that Christians

seem to use. As for doubts being common, even the well-known Internet

apologist Glenn Miller has written on his website in reference to what it

is like for a Christian to do battle with "skeptics," at

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/advice.html

"No matter how much you 'know your stuff' or how long you have walked with

Him or how many questions of your own He has answered, your spirit will be

troubled. No matter how many prayers have been answered (beyond the range

of statistical probability) or how much character transformation you have

personally experienced (beyond the range of self-help methodologies) or

how many sceptics you have seen come to trust in this Living Lord, your

spirit will be troubled. "

I think that if their "spirit will be troubled" then that must mean that

they are put into doubt. Even the likes of Glen Miller. Whereas one of the

things that surprised me in debating Christians is just how easy it is,

which makes me think I'm onto something! All it takes is the ability to

think carefully and to know how to research. It can take a lot of time

though!

<<... cannot reconcile a God of love with the biblical God, whom we

are to told to believe, forgives *all*sin (including the rape and murder

of a child?) except the sin of unbelief, for which we will fry eternally.

Isn't it odd that the rest of the believers appear to see no such

absurdity? >>

Well said! It seems absurd to me that Christians claim they have "good

news" whereas it transpires that they have brought instead some really

bad news - torture forever just for not believing something that is so

absurd.

<< There is no bible study for asking awkward questions. >>

I see that over and again in deconversion stories - how Christians turn on

those who start asking awkward questions at church etc. Dr. Garrett

claimed that there are answers, but failed miserably when I pressed him

for them.

http://sites.google.com/site/leavingxtianity/feedback/dr-anthony-garrett. Another

good one is the correspondence at

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/james/no.html

<< I wonder how many religious leaders get to the top and realise that

their doubts are greater than their faith but feel they must continue

because their livelihood and social standing depend on it? >>

I asked the principal of a theological college (who I knew had read a

little Cupitt and had a large library) how he copes with the thoughts of

Cupitt, Russell, Paine, Nietzsche etc. He told me that he has to remember

his position as a priest and leader of a theological college, and there

are some things that he just can't read. Earlier he had told me that his

main reason for being a Christian is because he believes in

authenticity...

Basically many elder churchmen do just leave the church altogether,

whereas some others make their views plain but desire to continue in some

related, but secular, manner. e.g. as a parish priest as a humanist

Christian (like Anthony Freeman - but he was sacked by the church for

this) or theologian Gerd Lüdemann who went so far as to say he renounced

Christianity, but still wished to lecture in NT history etc. (his

university tried unsuccessfully to sack him) or Michael Goulder who left

the priesthood but continued his university duties, reporting that many of

the students who go through his courses are no longer Christians by the

end, such is the inevitability of unfettered research.

Also the literalness of the beliefs of clergy is usually much less than

their congregation - from http://www.religioustolerance.org/resur_lt.htm

"The beliefs of mainline Christian clergy and academics tend to be

between those of the liberals and conservatives. A survey of mostly

mainline Protestant clergy shows that many doubt Jesus' physical

resurrection. Percentage of doubters are:

American Lutherans: 13%

Presbyterians: 30%

American Baptist: 33%

Episcopalians: 35%

Methodists: 51%

There is a massive gap between the beliefs of the clergy and laity in

mainline and liberal churches. A recent survey of randomly selected

Christians revealed that 96% believe the resurrection to have been an

historical event."

<< The Christian church is a clever mix of psychological tactics. Having

got you in, with a promise of 'free' salvation, they keep you there with

psychological blackmail. To doubt is an unforgivable sin. Where else

will you go? Who else "loves you as you are but loves you too much to

leave you like that"? >>

Its also classic abuser-abused relationship psychology Christians have

with their god. See

Commentry on The need for Quality Apologetics and

http://www.losingmyreligion.com/articlesf/abuse.html

<< who do I thank for a beautiful day? I asked my Buddhist friend and he

seemed bemused that I should consider thanking anybody. >>

Yes, G.K. Chesterton wrote that "the worst moment for an atheist is when

they are full of thankfulness with no one to thank."

It is Christian propaganda I'm afraid. If you had never been a Christian

who expects to react to the world in that way then you would be unlikely

to be feeling this. In her accounts of mystical experiences, Marghanita

Laski http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/mybooks.html#laski

showed that non-believers were quite capable of having spiritual and

beautiful experiences without the need for finding a god to thank. I agree

with your Buddhist friend, and I think that other non-theists who have not

been brought up with a theistic background would also be bemused

that they were meant to feel thankfulness to a deity. Interestingly

Buddhists describe belief in a deity, not so much as "false" but as

"unskilful" as it can actually harm one's spiritual life, wrapping you up

in concern over your own soul and salvation. Buddhism strikes me

as much more mentally healthy.

Conversely Christians usually expect you not to blame their god for the

terrors of the world. Somehow Auschwitz was for a higher purpose. If so,

then maybe a beautiful sunset is Satan up to some devious trick too evil

for us to fathom.

I do not blame the Norse god Thor for making a racket with thunder and

lightning whilst I'm trying to sleep. Neither can I bring myself to thank

Bacchus for the gift of wine. Without any reason for believing in

existence of the Christian god or any other, I can no more blame him for

wicked biblical passages and Auschwitz than I can blame evil elves for

making my computer crash. I save my computer wrath for Bill Gates, and my

annoyance at Christianity for dishonest Christians.

As for beautiful moments, for me they became even more unbearably

beautiful and gratuitous when I no longer felt there was a giver. All this

stuff - for free!

Best wishes,

Steve

----------------

Leaving Christianity

----- Original Message -----

From:Chris

To: Steve Locks

Sent: 03 December 2001 14:37

Subject: Re: Thanks for your web page.

Hi Steve

Many thanks for your answer to my email (and *more* links!) I particularly

like some of the things on the "Losing My Religion" website and for the

past couple of days have lived the truth of the linked poem "I Woke Up".

In all those years I had been unaware of the continual subliminal worry

about "pleasing God" until I woke up a couple of days ago and was aware of

a strange feeling of peace. No-one watching every move I make. I can now

listen to the lovely lyrics of John Lennon's "Imagine" with impunity!

I was previously afraid of living a finite life, with the prospect of death

looming over me. How would I cope with knowing that this is it, this is

all there is? In reality it is not as terrifying as the alternatives - an

eternity in Hell or an eternity with nothing to do but worship a capricious

God. I now see the (miracle?) of life as being even more precious. Ironic

that so many millions have died and continue to die in the name of

religion. I'm off now to forage around on your website again. It is a

relief to find well-argued articles which confirm things which have niggled

me for years. The writers have obviously done their homework and are

probably more familiar with the contents of the Bible we are supposed to

believe than are the majority of la(z?)y Christians.

Best Wishes

Chris