Chris
Feedback discussions - Chris
a new ex-Christian, eloquently and movingly describes her own feelings - and in doing so describes the feelings in common to many.
----- Original Message -----
From:Chris
To: Steve Locks
Sent: 01 December 2001 20:49
Subject: Thanks for your web page.
Hi Steve
I had to write and let you know that I am very grateful that you have taken
the trouble to make your web page so that those of us who are hoping to
leave behind the brainwashing of years have somewhere to go. Is it unusual
that although I am convinced that I can no longer believe without
reservation, I still feel rather guilty (sinful?) reading anti-Christian
material?
I have been struggling to believe for about 35 years, since I was a
teenager, having had a variety of 'spiritual' experiences (both religious
and non-religious). I always believed that it was due to my
sin/doubt/whatever that I never had the orgasmic experiences of my
charismatic friends, nor the 'personal relationship' of which they speak.
I always found it difficult to distinguish between my own thoughts and "the
leading of the Spirit" and impossible to have a relationship with a silent,
invisible person(s?) whose only means of communication is on a subliminal
level. As for fathoming out which member of the 'Trinity' I was supposed
to be addressing, well I never did. When I asked 'mature Christians' they
said it didn't matter. It did to me.
I feel like my gay sister must have felt when she 'came out'. She said the
feelings had always been there. She too was a 'born again' Christian and
prayed and fasted to extremes that God would cure her. He didn't. She is
now an unbeliever. My doubts have always been there. I remember querying
the cursing of the fig tree, Jesus' use of a whip on the moneychangers, the
careless way he addressed his mother, the fact that both he and Paul
appeared to expect the 'end times' to be very soon, 2000 years ago. I was
pleased to see from your web page that I am not the only one! I had the
added burden of guilt because of a failed marriage and other 'sins' which I
won't bore you with here. I know that I would never ask another person to
stay in a relationship which was causing them pain and I would never do it
again myself, so how could I truly be a Christian when the church teaches
that marriage is for life?
The realisation that I maybe do not even believe in God, and certainly not
in the vengeful Christian God, is a shock to me. I still think I see the
handiwork of a 'creator' in the universe but cannot reconcile a God of love
with the biblical God, whom we are to told to believe, forgives *all*sin
(including the rape and murder of a child?) except the sin of unbelief, for
which we will fry eternally. Isn't it odd that the rest of the believers
appear to see no such absurdity? Except that the very act of questioning
one's belief is not allowed, is frowned upon and discouraged. There is no
bible study for asking awkward questions.
I agree with you that leaving that all behind is liberating. Scary, but
exhilarating. I realise that this is probably all there is and life is so
much more precious because of that. I can no longer be blasé, relying on
living forever and doing things later. Now is all the time we can be sure
of. I also find other people, even strangers, easier to appreciate and I
am aware that previously there was a barrier because of my faith. There is
a subconscious feeling of superiority when one is a Christian, one of the
elite, the untouchable. Well not any more. I can continue the
conversation I started last month with a Buddhist friend and really
appreciate his point of view without secretly believing myself to be party
to privileged information whilst wondering whether I should really be
talking to him at all lest some demon should take possession of my soul for
such a sin (well you know what I mean).
I wonder how many religious leaders get to the top and realise that their
doubts are greater than their faith but feel they must continue because
their livelihood and social standing depend on it? The Christian church is
a clever mix of psychological tactics. Having got you in, with a promise
of 'free' salvation, they keep you there with psychological blackmail. To
doubt is an unforgivable sin. Where else will you go? Who else "loves you
as you are but loves you too much to leave you like that"? The more I
think about it, the more I realise that there is absolutely no proof of the
existence of God and no evidence of his supposed love for us. People who
have never believed have lived lives much the same as mine, with the same
random mix of 'blessings' and misfortunes. My decisions and actions have
been no better or worse than those of the great majority of 'unsaved'
people of a similar social background. The Christian church is guilty of
the tricks used by the cults which it purports to detest (Moonies, Mormons,
Jehovah's Witnesses et alia) Offer them love and brainwash them to believe
they will be damned if they leave. I can't believe I have fallen for this
for so long. I think it is because I couldn't face the thought of there
being nothing after death, or worse, that I would be damned for eternity.
Now I am not bothered. Either there is a loving God, as witnessed by all
those near death experience people, or there is nothing and it will be no
worse than falling asleep. Unfortunately I won't be able to let you know,
should I get there before you.
My only remaining problem is that I am left with a Christian name which is
now less appropriate than it might have been. Oh, and who do I thank for a
beautiful day? I asked my Buddhist friend and he seemed bemused that I
should consider thanking anybody.
with best wishes
Christine.
----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Locks
To: Chris
Sent: 02 December 2001 21:09
Subject: Re: Thanks for your web page.
Hi Chris,
Thanks very much for your thoughtful email. A number of times people have
remarked that just by reading the thoughts of others they see their own
thoughts and experiences expressed so well. For me, I had that experience
in reading your email, it was almost as if I had written it myself!
<< Is it unusual that although I am convinced that I can no longer
believe without reservation, I still feel rather guilty (sinful?) reading
anti-Christian material? >>
It's not at all unusual. I've seen it many times on the ex-Christian
mailing list and experienced it myself. I left Christianity 16 years ago
and still occasionally get those feelings, although admittedly a lot less
than I used to. I think it was about 2 years until I stopped being
constantly subliminally scared that I was doing something terrible by no
longer being able to accept Christianity. I think the guilty/worried
feeling left mostly due to the emotional realisation that being punished
for ones thoughts is not good. But the old brainwashing is hard to shake
off. Christians are usually taught that belief is a choice - otherwise
where is the justice in being rewarded for it or punished for not having
it? However it became apparent to me that not only is it psychologically
impossible to believe something you don't believe, but it's neither moral
or responsible to attempt to force oneself to believe things. I discussed
this mostly with Dr. Garrett.
It is no wonder that plenty of Christians have doubts as they live with
so much cognitive dissonance. Nevertheless the feelings that later take
over are, as you mentioned, exhilaration at so much interesting material
to find out, freedom to really think in an unfettered way and connection
with others, even if you disagree with them. I loved your description:
<< There is a subconscious feeling of superiority when one is a Christian,
one of the elite, the untouchable. Well not any more. I can continue the
conversation I started last month with a Buddhist friend and really
appreciate his point of view without secretly believing myself to be party
to privileged information whilst wondering whether I should really be
talking to him at all lest some demon should take possession of my soul
for such a sin... >>
Exactly! I felt like I was in a secret and spiritually insightful superior
club. Even somewhat heroic for daring to be a Christian in a largely
secular society (living in the UK that is!)
<< I always believed that it was due to my sin/doubt/whatever that
I never had the orgasmic experiences of my charismatic friends,
nor the 'personal relationship' of which they speak. >>
As Robert Price remarked nobody had even heard of "having a personal
relationship with Christ" and "inviting him into your heart" until the
German Pietist movement of the Eighteenth Century. So I wouldn't worry,
it is a manufactured relationship. Catholics will have deep devotion to
the Virgin Mary, whereas other Christians would balk at such feelings.
Ex-Moonie leader Steve Hassan spoke of his overpowering love for
the Reverend Moon, even to the extent that he would have killed for him.
In my opinion it is all manufactured based on what you are supposed
to be feeling - Christians would be having personal relationships with
St. Peter if that is what they were told was important. As most of us
painfully discover it is quite possible to fall in love with somebody who
does not love you or who is quite a different person than the one you
thought they were. Feelings of love are sadly no guarantee that you
are correctly perceiving the focus of your love.
An ex-nun friend told me that she gradually came to realise that a
relationship in which one of the partners does not talk to you is not a
real or healthy relationship at all. Add to this the rationalizations
Christians have to make to justify hell and the "vibrant, dynamic"
relationship they sometimes report with Jesus is horribly similar
to the deep attachment captives sometimes develop in prison camps (the
"Stockholm Syndrome.") After the holocaust (not to mention a host of
other atrocities and natural disasters), there should be no numinous and
loving feeling left for such neglectful deities.
See feedback/mcfall for some more ranting on this one!
<< As for fathoming out which member of the 'Trinity' I was supposed
to be addressing, well I never did. When I asked 'mature Christians' they
said it didn't matter. It did to me. >>
Coincidentally I was musing over an old memory of that problem just
yesterday. Until I went to university, the Christians around me discussed
God. At university I was exposed to Christians who talked about Jesus all
the time. Seemed like an unnecessarily obstacle as I was doing very well
before the extra theological personage had to be in the forefront all the
time :-> Anyway, I once saw the following on the errancy newsgroup which
amused me. Here is the snippet:
It's very simple. Jesus not only IS God, he is also the SON of
God, who unfortunately never had a wife and never had sex, except
possibly for the Holy Ghost part of God, who supposedly somehow
impregnated Mary, but this didn't involve sex, because Mary was still
a virgin, but this is getting off the point. Anyway God as a whole
however is really a triad, usually called the trinity, it being of
course, like all good combinations, greater than the sum of its parts,
God thereby being the ultimate synergism, which however does not apply
here because each part is also the whole thing, so the whole thing is
less than the sum of its parts, except that it's also equal to the sum
of its parts because the sum is the sum, period. Now Jesus as I said
before both is and is not all of God, the latter fact being
demonstrated by his asking, at a certain crucial point (no pun
intended), why the rest of God, that is, the father part, had
abandoned the Jesus, or son, part of God. Jesus also kept referring
to himself as the son of man, which seems to imply that man and God
are the same thing, except the Bible says this is not so, so the son
of man designation is not exactly clear, unlike all the other really
obvious stuff I explained above.
My own feeling is that the Trinity was chosen because the other
choices, Monity, Binity, and Quinity (wait, that's five), sound silly,
in fact all together sounding like a team of comedians.
Anyway, remember, this is Monotheism.
<< I feel like my gay sister must have felt when she 'came out'. >>
That too is very common. Some gay ex-Christians have explicitly remarked
on the similarity they felt in "coming out" of the closet about their
homosexuality and their "coming out" about their lack of belief in
Christianity. It was also interesting to note that on the ex-Christian
mailing list, although there were diverse opinions on abortion,
child-rearing, gun-control etc. etc. there was unanimity on acceptance of
homosexuality, despite the fact that many (not all) condemned it as
Christians. Homophobia is one of those things which appears to be taught
by the certain large elements of the church, because it appears so
strikingly absent in ex-Christians once the biblical reasons for
condemning it no longer hold influence. However I want to be quick to
point out that there are plenty of gay-friendly Christians (I was one,
although not when a young teenager), one of my university housemates
was secretary both of the University Anglicans and "gaysoc." There are
also very pro-gay Christian groups such as the UU's and the MCC (See
http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_met.htm). There are also
homophobic atheists, but I am yet to meet a homophobic ex-Christian.
<< My doubts have always been there. >>
Although plenty of ex-Christians (and present Christians) have always had
some doubts from my encounters and reading, some go through a "complete
certainty" period. I think though that some doubt is common, although
there are plenty of cult-like thought stopping techniques that Christians
seem to use. As for doubts being common, even the well-known Internet
apologist Glenn Miller has written on his website in reference to what it
is like for a Christian to do battle with "skeptics," at
http://www.christian-thinktank.com/advice.html
"No matter how much you 'know your stuff' or how long you have walked with
Him or how many questions of your own He has answered, your spirit will be
troubled. No matter how many prayers have been answered (beyond the range
of statistical probability) or how much character transformation you have
personally experienced (beyond the range of self-help methodologies) or
how many sceptics you have seen come to trust in this Living Lord, your
spirit will be troubled. "
I think that if their "spirit will be troubled" then that must mean that
they are put into doubt. Even the likes of Glen Miller. Whereas one of the
things that surprised me in debating Christians is just how easy it is,
which makes me think I'm onto something! All it takes is the ability to
think carefully and to know how to research. It can take a lot of time
though!
<<... cannot reconcile a God of love with the biblical God, whom we
are to told to believe, forgives *all*sin (including the rape and murder
of a child?) except the sin of unbelief, for which we will fry eternally.
Isn't it odd that the rest of the believers appear to see no such
absurdity? >>
Well said! It seems absurd to me that Christians claim they have "good
news" whereas it transpires that they have brought instead some really
bad news - torture forever just for not believing something that is so
absurd.
<< There is no bible study for asking awkward questions. >>
I see that over and again in deconversion stories - how Christians turn on
those who start asking awkward questions at church etc. Dr. Garrett
claimed that there are answers, but failed miserably when I pressed him
for them.
http://sites.google.com/site/leavingxtianity/feedback/dr-anthony-garrett. Another
good one is the correspondence at
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/james/no.html
<< I wonder how many religious leaders get to the top and realise that
their doubts are greater than their faith but feel they must continue
because their livelihood and social standing depend on it? >>
I asked the principal of a theological college (who I knew had read a
little Cupitt and had a large library) how he copes with the thoughts of
Cupitt, Russell, Paine, Nietzsche etc. He told me that he has to remember
his position as a priest and leader of a theological college, and there
are some things that he just can't read. Earlier he had told me that his
main reason for being a Christian is because he believes in
authenticity...
Basically many elder churchmen do just leave the church altogether,
whereas some others make their views plain but desire to continue in some
related, but secular, manner. e.g. as a parish priest as a humanist
Christian (like Anthony Freeman - but he was sacked by the church for
this) or theologian Gerd Lüdemann who went so far as to say he renounced
Christianity, but still wished to lecture in NT history etc. (his
university tried unsuccessfully to sack him) or Michael Goulder who left
the priesthood but continued his university duties, reporting that many of
the students who go through his courses are no longer Christians by the
end, such is the inevitability of unfettered research.
Also the literalness of the beliefs of clergy is usually much less than
their congregation - from http://www.religioustolerance.org/resur_lt.htm
"The beliefs of mainline Christian clergy and academics tend to be
between those of the liberals and conservatives. A survey of mostly
mainline Protestant clergy shows that many doubt Jesus' physical
resurrection. Percentage of doubters are:
American Lutherans: 13%
Presbyterians: 30%
American Baptist: 33%
Episcopalians: 35%
Methodists: 51%
There is a massive gap between the beliefs of the clergy and laity in
mainline and liberal churches. A recent survey of randomly selected
Christians revealed that 96% believe the resurrection to have been an
historical event."
<< The Christian church is a clever mix of psychological tactics. Having
got you in, with a promise of 'free' salvation, they keep you there with
psychological blackmail. To doubt is an unforgivable sin. Where else
will you go? Who else "loves you as you are but loves you too much to
leave you like that"? >>
Its also classic abuser-abused relationship psychology Christians have
with their god. See
Commentry on The need for Quality Apologetics and
http://www.losingmyreligion.com/articlesf/abuse.html
<< who do I thank for a beautiful day? I asked my Buddhist friend and he
seemed bemused that I should consider thanking anybody. >>
Yes, G.K. Chesterton wrote that "the worst moment for an atheist is when
they are full of thankfulness with no one to thank."
It is Christian propaganda I'm afraid. If you had never been a Christian
who expects to react to the world in that way then you would be unlikely
to be feeling this. In her accounts of mystical experiences, Marghanita
Laski http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/mybooks.html#laski
showed that non-believers were quite capable of having spiritual and
beautiful experiences without the need for finding a god to thank. I agree
with your Buddhist friend, and I think that other non-theists who have not
been brought up with a theistic background would also be bemused
that they were meant to feel thankfulness to a deity. Interestingly
Buddhists describe belief in a deity, not so much as "false" but as
"unskilful" as it can actually harm one's spiritual life, wrapping you up
in concern over your own soul and salvation. Buddhism strikes me
as much more mentally healthy.
Conversely Christians usually expect you not to blame their god for the
terrors of the world. Somehow Auschwitz was for a higher purpose. If so,
then maybe a beautiful sunset is Satan up to some devious trick too evil
for us to fathom.
I do not blame the Norse god Thor for making a racket with thunder and
lightning whilst I'm trying to sleep. Neither can I bring myself to thank
Bacchus for the gift of wine. Without any reason for believing in
existence of the Christian god or any other, I can no more blame him for
wicked biblical passages and Auschwitz than I can blame evil elves for
making my computer crash. I save my computer wrath for Bill Gates, and my
annoyance at Christianity for dishonest Christians.
As for beautiful moments, for me they became even more unbearably
beautiful and gratuitous when I no longer felt there was a giver. All this
stuff - for free!
Best wishes,
Steve
----------------
Leaving Christianity
----- Original Message -----
From:Chris
To: Steve Locks
Sent: 03 December 2001 14:37
Subject: Re: Thanks for your web page.
Hi Steve
Many thanks for your answer to my email (and *more* links!) I particularly
like some of the things on the "Losing My Religion" website and for the
past couple of days have lived the truth of the linked poem "I Woke Up".
In all those years I had been unaware of the continual subliminal worry
about "pleasing God" until I woke up a couple of days ago and was aware of
a strange feeling of peace. No-one watching every move I make. I can now
listen to the lovely lyrics of John Lennon's "Imagine" with impunity!
I was previously afraid of living a finite life, with the prospect of death
looming over me. How would I cope with knowing that this is it, this is
all there is? In reality it is not as terrifying as the alternatives - an
eternity in Hell or an eternity with nothing to do but worship a capricious
God. I now see the (miracle?) of life as being even more precious. Ironic
that so many millions have died and continue to die in the name of
religion. I'm off now to forage around on your website again. It is a
relief to find well-argued articles which confirm things which have niggled
me for years. The writers have obviously done their homework and are
probably more familiar with the contents of the Bible we are supposed to
believe than are the majority of la(z?)y Christians.
Best Wishes
Chris