Centranthera cochinchinensis var. nepalensis

Centranthera cochinchinensis var. nepalensis (D. Don) Merr., Anniv. Vol. Bot. Gard. Calcutta 56 1942. (Syn: Centranthera nepalensis D. Don; Razumovia cochinchinensis var. nepalensis (D. Don) Merrill); 

China (Sichuan, Yunnan), Tibet, India, Nepal, Darjeeling, Jammu & Kashmir (Kashmir) as per Catalogue of Life;

After detailed study the only main difference that I found between two is the length of Corolla which is much longer in C.indica (2-2.5cms long) than C.cochinchinensis var. nepalensis (1.5cms long) .
Also the matured plants of C.cochinchinensis var. nepalensis can remain as small as to 5cms whereas the plants are larger (more than 10cms) in C.indica.
Moreover C.indica is much widespread species reported from South India to Australia while C.cochinchinensis var. nepalensis only occurs near the Himalayas.


https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/59d4acf5853ff/FB_IMG_1512223095688.jpg?part=0.1&view=1&vt=ANaJVrGKIT8VtMC8a9jN3r4Dl5qIdDeu8jqe8TWQ_t4cdc1Osyh7KXtZSkOYlgTNXMTCUfywkbWpulvXLRzlyggYGjN4rg-BuZoDdEq_17nWbt05qfiZSCI
 https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/87579ee867d94/C.%20nepalensis%20flower%2015mm%20long.png?part=0.1&view=1&vt=ANaJVrHCIuBUvymybXDd0u3iVQNdPwgi2o8NAbq0aONAJMazbBmUBphU95NeF7yPjqFldkVzglhhb7qrrq53rMq51yqVLCcdjuMZGz9JFK8EQawWdNi8oPM
https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/59d4acf5853ff/IMG_20170917_125549.jpg?part=0.2&view=1&vt=ANaJVrFe9eYmvjJLFtaBgWh4xH7HQ9XaiC5hv1984syXNMZ6TYiVGWckBtjo9ZklFDBLqXJ1iPq4Q0LnwW06yw0vZ2P3FpntmD9O4KgbSSG6MLBwEkYm2RM
https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/59d4acf5853ff/FB_IMG_1512222248911.jpg?part=0.4&view=1&vt=ANaJVrGukSiv2FjI2dtzOGOVQWmgQqCV4hksWrNcH_al-m17vj3kWW4etDnO_edtOAeKpStSsjadoAXObXdeXED3sfWyTdtJCQuDOFKVWRIdFVeL_vY35CE
Centranthera indica confirmation requested : 31 posts by 5 authors. Attachments (4) - one of 2 Mb.
Please confirm this herb , looks close to Centranthera indica but colour looks different.
At Hamirpur, HP
Altitude - 750 metres
Dated - 17/9/2017

This is not Centrathera indica ..
I think not any other Centrathera even...
Thanks ..., To me it also look different from C.indica but ... had identified it as Centranthera indica on some group, any idea of closely related Genus sir?
Can it be from 

... i just checked, it don't matches with any Scrophulariaceae member

Acanthaceae

I am still not sure though in the link provided by ... images matches with plant.
I think ... may confirm.
This is Centranthera cochinchinensis var. lutea as per
http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2&taxon_id=200020635 
Thanks ... looks close.
I will try to find it and check it again by next month .
Thanks, ... That will be nice. Yellowishness of the flowers will also have to be checked. 
https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/855b419dd65a6/Centranthera%20nepalensis%20..png?part=0.1&view=1&vt=ANaJVrGBuOuiGnR1VLsgMwppNCG0pT5hOxL8zEGsR6QME_YO1Eam0Bxa6lGVzKI4qNZBRIIsFde8XcaIDdYjs1UrNTGkQ2kkXFX2LBnrN1Q1EnaNCEwIOQ8
 
sorry for late response.
Attachments (4) - around 600 kb each. 

This is Centranthera cochinchinensis var. nepalensis rare white yellowish form (Synonyms - C.nepalensis) , it is not Centranthera cochinchinensis var. lutea because of its bracts longer than the calyces moreover in this case the corolla is also not longer than 15mm which will be upto 20mm in Centranthera cochinchinensis var. lutea .
Thus this one is rarer white yellowish form of Centranthera cochinchinensis var. nepalensis as generally flower colour is pinkish (corolla) with darker purplish tube.
Here are some images regarding differences between Centranthera species and a link 
Attachments (3) - Details and keys from the books.

great pics, these last ones. exactly how a small flower parts that are relevant need to be depicted.
2: did you go back to the same site and find this anew?
3: the link and your three screenshot dont match. the 3 screenshots are from some book or online flora of western Himalayas.
so do you have a link? or a citation of the book you scanned it from?
thanks again for being thorough. i like it. now if only we would all be thorough to start with, my eternal hope.
4: never rely on any herbal selling site, as in ... link. this one is a resort....how diligent are they in selecting pictures? god only knows.
Thanks, ..., for the wonderful analysis.
May I know the books respectively from where these snapshots have being taken.

https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/87579ee867d94/C.%20nepalensis%20flower%2015mm%20long.png?part=0.1&view=1&vt=ANaJVrHCIuBUvymybXDd0u3iVQNdPwgi2o8NAbq0aONAJMazbBmUBphU95NeF7yPjqFldkVzglhhb7qrrq53rMq51yqVLCcdjuMZGz9JFK8EQawWdNi8oPM
 
Thanks ... for suggestions yes the plants are recently photographed from same locations as of previous year and are same to earlier one.
Thanks ... here are the links -
Razumovia Sprengel Versus Centranthera R. Brown E. D. Merrill Bulletin of the Torrey Botanical Club Vol. 64, No. 9 (Dec., 1937), pp. 589-598
Scrophulariaceae of the Western Himalayas By Francis . Pennell (1943)
Two more images attached showing corolla length about 15 mm and other showing plant size as small as upto 6cms.
Attachments (2)
May I request you to go through the posts in Centranthera indica (having posts from south India, where only C. indica is reported and from Himalayas where only Centranthera cochinchinensis var. nepalensis is reported)- do you find any difference between the two ?  
I have gone through most of the posts of Centranthera indica page.
Both C.indica as well as C. cochinchinensis var. nepalensis are mentioned as two different species on plant list as well as gbif. Also in IUCN page on Centranthera indica there's no any mention of C.cochinchinensis var. nepalensis as its synonym.
After detailed study the only main difference that I found between two is the length of Corolla which is much longer in C.indica (2-2.5cms long) than C.cochinchinensis var. nepalensis (1.5cms long) .
Also the matured plants of C.cochinchinensis var. nepalensis can remain as small as to 5cms whereas the plants are larger (more than 10cms) in C.indica.
However from the images as well as colour of flower present on site we can't conclude it untill we will have measurements of Corolla, as far as my specimens are concerned both including this rarer white colour form and the other pink colour form have corolla not more than 15mm long, but personally till now I have no any encounter with the South Indian Centranthera indica.
Moreover C.indica is much widespread species reported from South India to Australia while C.cochinchinensis var. nepalensis only occurs near the Himalayas.
I am sharing again this link where difference between Centranthera species are listed.
Razumovia Sprengel Versus Centranthera R. Brown E. D. Merrill Bulletin of the Torrey Botanical Club Vol. 64, No. 9 (Dec., 1937), pp. 589-598

Thanks a lot, ..., for taking your time and doing this important analysis.
Did you check my post too? And your opinion please.
I have seen your post of Centranthera from Nepal and that plant is matching with my another post on Centranthera cochinchinensis var. nepalensis having rose coloured corolla and darker purplish corolla tube. 
That one should be C.cochinchinensis var. nepalensis.
However I will recomend you to please take measurement of Corolla if possible, it should be about 15mm long.

Ok Next season.


https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/113e32e3b50d33/CSC_0876.JPG?part=0.6&view=1&vt=ANaJVrEF1mJZnf6rKUziRHu3nlxDq1bXTDf7XLycdtyEigEu3QuLebBblw_ehITUszCZO0If0qGOYhQbZ1UwMs1pFHtZTFCVLpnGAjHmyoyouOcUaqltpW4
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SK97SEP12-1016:ID : 7 posts by 2 authors. Attachments (9)
Sharing some pictures for ID shot at Gund Bhaktapur Nepal on 11 September 2016 at 5100 ft.
Centranthera nepalensis D. Don. syn. Centranthera cochinchinensis var. nepalensis (D. Don) Merr. or Centranthera indica since C. indica is not listed in Nepal.

The following give distribution of Centranthera indica in Nepal:
Following give it Centranthera nepalensis D. Don as a syn. of Centranthera indica :
So definitely there is some confusion.
These images appear quite close to the images in efi at Centranthera indica
I could not find any images of Centranthera nepalensis on net.
Pl. help in sorting this out.
I guess it is Centranthera nepalensis D. Don as a syn. of Centranthera cochinchinensis var. nepalensis (D. Don) Merr.
Adding some more pictures I shot on 26 September at the same location which I hope will help to decide the ID. Attachments (6) 
The pictures of C. nepalensis at this link http://www.hkwildlife.net/Forum/viewthread.php?tid=50232 look very different from those posted here, which resemble C. indica
Fresh images from Pokhara shot on 10 August 2017 at 2800 ft. Experts from Nepal confirmed it as C. nepalensis not C. indica.
Any further opinion please !
Attachments (7)
In addition to the remarks given earlier, on perusal of FOC illustration, it is clear to me that Centranthera nepalensis D. Don (& in turn Centranthera cochinchinensis var. nepalensis (D. Don) Merr.) is nothing but Centranthera indica (L.) Gamble
I did not find any links showing their relation with C. indica and 
neither in books. On the other hand some friends indicated it as 
C.nepalensis. So I am a bit confused.
A reply from another thread:
"I have seen your post of Centranthera from Nepal and that plant is matching with my another post on Centranthera cochinchinensis var. nepalensis having rose coloured corolla and darker purplish corolla tube. 
That one should be C. cochinchinensis var. nepalensis.
However I will recomend you to please take measurement of Corolla if possible, it should be about 15mm long."
Thank you ... I shall look into this next year.
Centranthera cochinchinensis var. nepalensis (D.Don) Merr. !
Nepali name : डमुरा घाँस Damuraa Ghaans 
 
https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/87c69efe0f96a/C.%20nepalensis%20rose%20pink%20flower%20form.png?part=0.4&view=1&vt=ANaJVrHRHkvWUVzw3Tjp9bVtIB-0eGDYjAC5ZYSo7J1aw3fhnyewtRYlu5NXVJ5z9bWFzJ5Zx-PahvAuzFtmFG3ygW455HqKEYw5xYulVkeK2ZqeEWThPsI
https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/87c69efe0f96a/C.%20nepalensis%20villous%20filaments.png?part=0.6&view=1&vt=ANaJVrHD6BHmoq71cZE4wcUVfNf0o2B5_oZaBqtdXJe-Mn0e-XNCwsJxDUDajtU2uhbniQcIm74Zu1DQhlhQAVy1nIz06cKpGaUyBGkLs4wopE_2vFXej1M
 
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Centranthera cochinchinensis var. nepalensis : 4 posts by 2 authors. Attachments (6)- around 500 kb each. 
Here are images of Centranthera cochinchinensis var nepalensis.
Synonyms - Centranthera nepalensis
Family - Orobanchaceae
This one is the common rose pink colour form with darker purplish corolla tube (Roxburgh has mentioned the flower colour as "Tube a deep purplish red, and the lobes rose-coloured") entire plant is hairy flower having villous filaments, corolla is about 15 mm long and bracts longer than the calyces.
Here's the book link 

I think this should be a syn. of Centranthera indica as per detailed discussions at https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/species/m---z/o/orobanchaceae/centranthera/centranthera-indica 

Centranthera indica is different from Centranthera cochinchinensis var. nepalensis (Synonyms - C.nepalensis)
Centranthera indica has much longer flowers about 2-2.5cms long and plant height is also more than 10cms.
Whereas Centranthera cochinchinensis var. nepalensis have small flowers generally not longer than 1.5cms also the plants are as small as upto 5cms in length.
Here's a link showing differences.
Also sir both names Centranthera indica as well as Centranthera cochinchinensis var. nepalensis are mentioned as accepted name in plant list as well as in Catalogue of Life.
Here's the link providing different Centranthera species mentioned in COL-
http://www.catalogueoflife.org/annual-checklist/2018/search/all/key/Centranthera/fossil/1/match/1

Thanks, ... Pl. go through all the posts in efi site. If you can sort them in C. indica and C. c. var. nepalensis, than only I can agree. After going through all posts in efi site, I have come to this conclusion and there are many book references in the efi site link, which give both as same. 

https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/7dc7596f524e7ada/Centrathera%20GV%20(13).JPG?part=0.6&view=1&vt=ANaJVrGHdKFgpKeekLLvccnu-rBi486pI2bjrJpBwYdqY7wqtwt6Az8PEYr92kpCo7DEtUP6Uy5h0fU5IIinh9FSM5iTaexwZSxsqXhN7p7N9U64SwMir_s
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Scrophulariaceae Fortnight: Herb for id from Gori Valley- NS 26 : Attachments (7). 3 posts by 2 authors.
This herb was shot near Munsiyari.. please help to id..
can this be Centrathera indica (Orobanchaceae) ?
Centranthera cochinchinensis var. nepalensis (D. Don) Merr. : 8 posts by 1 author. 8 images- 6 to 7 mb each.
Location: Khadka Gaun, Kathmandu,  Nepal  
Date: 10 September 2020
Elevation: 1500m.
Habit : Wild
Syn : Centranthera nepalensis D. Don

 



References:

Razumovia Sprengel Versus Centranthera R. Brown E. D. Merrill Bulletin of the Torrey Botanical Club Vol. 64, No. 9 (Dec., 1937), pp. 589-598
Scrophulariaceae of the Western Himalayas By Francis . Pennell (1946)

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