Geranium pratense ?

 
jer-AY-nee-um -- from the Greek geranos, crane; referring to the beak-like fruit ... Dave's Botanary
pray-TEN-see or pray-TEN-say -- referring to a meadow ... Dave's Botanary

commonly known as: meadow crane's bill, meadow geranium • Lahauli: porlo • Spiti: likatur

Native to: Europe, c Asia, n-w Himalaya; naturalized, cultivated elsewhere
 
A species very similar in appearance to G. wallichianum but very easily differentiated by very narrow linear stipules, 5-7 lobed leaves more deeply divided, each segment narrower, narrowest towards tip and gradually broader towards base with 6-13 acutish lobes, and narrowed suddenly below the lowest pairs of lobes. the species is now considerd closer to G. himalense but latter has smaller leaves, broader segments with lobes concentrated in upper with 5-7 lobes, mostly lobed again.
 
A large flowered species similar to himalayense and G. collinum in general appearance but 5-7 lobed smaller leaves, 3-5 cm across, with narrower segments which are narrowest at apex, narrowly ovate in shape, purple flowers fruiting pedicels erect in fruit, petals 15-20 mm long, fruit with beak less than 3.5 cm long. 


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Geranium pratense from Kashmir: Geranium pratense L., Sp. Pl. 2: 681. 1753.

A species very similar in appearance to G. wallichianum but very easily differentiated by very narrow linear stipules, 5-7 lobed leaves more deeply divided, each segment narrower, narrowest towards tip and gradually broader towards base with 6-13 acutish lobes, and narrowed suddenly below the lowest pairs of lobes. the species is now considerd closer to G. himalense but latter has smaller leaves, broader segments with lobes concentrated in upper with 5-7 lobes, mostly lobed again. 
Flora of Pakistan considers Himalayan form as subsp. stewartianum, but this taxon is not accepted in light of variation within the species. 
Photographed from Gulmarg, kashmir.
I currently cannot put a firm name on this - shall comment further in due course. I do consider it is part of the G.collinum-pratense-himalayense
alliance (see below) but definitely not with what I understand to be G.himalayense from Ladakh.  

I do have some images of Geranium pratense taken in the UK earlier this year which it might be worthwhile me posting for comparison purposes - accepting that Nasir recognised subspecies stewartianum. 

Let me try to explain.  In the Notes Yeo supplied me, he draws attention to the problematical G.collinum-pratense-himalayense alliance.  He considered this was particularly critical in the NW Himalaya with high quality pressed specimens needed (nowadays these can be supplemented and sometimes replaced by high quality digital images (provided the advice given below is followed).  This alliance has pink to blue flowers (sometimes white) in which the stamen-tip and stigmas are never blackish-purple...
I consider it will be helpful for keen photographers, willing to make an additional effort, to know which parts of Geranium to photograph.  Having images of such parts of each geranium will greatly aid identification and enhance our understanding of the genus in the Himalaya - and perhaps you can help with the locating and identification of a species new-to-science!
 

PHOTOGRAPHING GERANIUMS: IF only the first one or two flowers have come out don't bother to collect as the form of inflorescence will not be evident.
The rootstock is important; get enough to show whether compact or creeping, or annual.  You can photograph the base of the plant which should provide this information. Clearly, one requires permission from the authorities to uproot a plant.  There is still  a need and indeed role for the collection of pressed specimens for herbaria in India but that is primarily the domain of staff of botanic gardens/ institutions. 
In the early stages of flowering look out for the best-developed unripe fruits available. 
If fruit is ripe try to include both dehisced and undehisced states. 
If the fruits are falling with the seeds inside them, collect some (many geraniums disperse their seed explosively but some seed is often retained). 
Include some loose petals when pressing (detach if necessary). Expose stamens to show filament shape and hairs by taking 2 or 3 sepals off a flower from which petals have recently dropped. 
Smoothing out one or two leaves and flowers as you close the press may be helpful; a few separately pressed basal and lower/middle stem leaves are often useful. 
Wilted specimens can be very misleading. 
Notes should be taken as to flower posture, colour and patterning of petals, colour of stigmas, anthers and distal parts of filaments (not necessary if your photos show these). 
And don't forget to ensure the stipules are clearly shown - something that would have been obviously in pressed specimens, so not mentioned above by Yeo.


I have photographed this species well in Kashmir. Do let me know if you want any enlarged portion for clear understanding.
I have not seen a copy of the description of Geranium clarkei nor have a copy of his book on Hardy Geraniums (the reason he had 'Hardy' in the title is that because in the UK gardeners often include non-hardy Pelargoniums, which interestingly often appear in window boxes in front of Swiss chalets but presumably, as in my country are brought inside to over-winter in a frost-free place, as well as true Geraniums).
There is a Hardy Geranium Group of the UK Hardy Plant Society - I have lectured at their AGM on two occasions about Himalayan geraniums.
Would be most useful if anyone who has a copy (or access to one) of Yeo's description of Geranium clarkei could sent me a copy. This seems to have been published in 'Hardy Geraniums' (1985).
Meanwhile, see: http://apps.kew.org/herbcat/getImage.do?imageBarcode=K000729513 which is the Holotype collected by Clarke in Kashmir at 'Harpoor' 2400m. I note Yeo had previously determined this as Geranium pratense 'Kashmir Form' -was this the same as Geranium pratense susbp. stewartianum?
And what you understood to be Geranium pratense in Kashmir?
I note that the 'Assessment of Geranium Diversity...' you sent a link to includes G.clarkei but provides no synoyms.  It includes Geranium himalayaense with G.pratense sensu FBI as a synonym but not G.pratense.
I have some images of what is now known in cultivation as G.clarkei 'Kashmir White' which I can find and post plus a form of G.pratense
growing wild in the UK, which I shall also post for comparison purposes.
Also took images of what I understand to be G.himalayense, growing in the garden here, still in flower (just) which I photographed at the same time as the images I posted yesterday of Geranium wallichianum. In the latter case, I can post a dozen or so images, showing the range of characteristics, which will be helpful. 
In the mean-time, I draw your attention to cultivated forms of G.clarkei 'Kashmir white' (bearing in mind that not all images on the internet of this cultivar, other cultivated varieties belonging to all genera and species of all genera are correctly identified, indeed many are not and geraniums are prone to hybridise, which complicates matters further and this happens not just accidentally due to bees but actively due to gardeners deliberately crossing them): 
these look OK to me.
And there is G.clarkei 'Kashmir Purple' see: link
Perhaps it may be too early to make general statement because eFlora of India, updated 2014 records both G. pratense (NW Himalayas, Pakistan, Nepal at altitude 3000-4500 m) and G. clakei (Endemic to Kashmir, 2100-4200 m), with well defined key and clear illustration of G. pretense with condensed flowers on short pedicels:
Agreed that most of my specimens may fit G. clarkei with pedicels clearly longer than calyx, immature fruits slightly nodding and flowers up to 48 mm across. We have to scrutinize all Himalayan specimens from NW Himalayas with compact infl. with pedicels shorter than calyx, slightly smaller up to 45 mm across flowers and reflexed immature fruits to fit into G. pratense.
At this stage it would be too early to discard G. kashmirianum, especially when both The Plant List and GRIN regard it as accepted name. I am trying to procure the original publication to decide and comment on distinguishing characters especially G. pratense. G. clarkei was published only one year earlier so authors may not have known about it when they sent their manuscript for publication.

I have been able to procure Image of holotype as well as original publication of G. kashmirianum. An interesting observation in publication sent in Dec. 1984, authors had thanked Prof. Yeo for going through the specimens and seems gave go ahead as new species, before he published his own G. clarkei in 1985.
I have ordered Hardy Geraniums by Dr. Yeo. It will reach me in a week, enabling me to comment conclusively. In the meantime if we have only one Geranium from G. pratense complex (leaving aside G. himalayanum) in Kashmir, what was need for new names, why not upgrade G. pratense subsp. stewartianum (already published) to species level. Perhaps I will have answer from Yeo's Book.
The next thing I did was to procured description and holotype of G. kashmirianum, and immediately ordered a copy Hardy Geraniums by Yeo, which arrived today and I was relieved with what I found in the book:
Both G. pratense and G. clarkei occur in Kashmir separable by characters enumerated in eFl of India and enumerated by me above. The Kashmir form of G. pratense is Gernanium pratense var. stewartianum (G. pratense subsp. stewartianum in eFl Pak).
There is an interesting Multiaccess key in the book according to which G. pratense and G. clarkei differ in rostrum with stylar portion less than 4 mm in former and more than 4 mm in latter
The key also has var. stewartianum placed nearer to G. clarkei in that Floral axis is above the horizontal (flowers upwardly inclined or erect) in both, whereas in true var. pratense floral axis is horizontal or below horizontal (flowers directed horizontally or nodding. And these two Paragraphs should clinch all issues
Chadwell No. 31 from Sonamarg represents this variety (var. stewartiana
I received three samples of seed of this from S K Raina in 1981 an 1982. all the plants raised were distiguishable in leaf size, flower colour and subtle variations in leaf segments 
Since he raised plants in cultivation he named the plant sent by S K Raina as Geranium pratense 'Raina'. Sapru and Raina while publishing the species G. kashmirianum have clearly mentioned that they had sent specimens to Dr. Yeo for scrutiny. This is a good pointer for new researchers. Since the plant grows wild in Gulmarg and above, following Yeo, it could be proposed as new forma (with of course proper epithet following the Code).
I have just got the book. Perhaps it will help me in helping with other specimens in our database, and of course the crucial job of sifting our G. pratense specimens into G. clarkei and G. pratense var. stewartiana, and cultivar (till some one proposes as forma (or some other rank)

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Geranium species from Paddar valley J&K 08: Request for Identification
Kindly identify this Geranium species
Location: Paddar valley J&K
Date: 20th and 17th May 2012
Altitude: 1900 meters and 3000 meters asl respectively
Habit/Habitat: Wild herb
Geranium nepalense ? which I included in Calendar of BSI in 1979
Just check image searchof Google and confirm. Dr Ellis collected it in Valley of flowers but I have it in Sikkim,Nepal-Bhutan. Many Himalayan fls can be identified with Himalayan Fls by Pollunin availabe at IBH or Oxford stn in big cities(Rs 350/) worth it. One without text but with 1000 slidesize pics was Rs 100/only By chance one can get it in Delhi or Calcutta

I think close to images at Geranium pratense L. ?



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Balsaminaceae, Geraniaceae and Oxalidaceae Week: Geraniaceae-Geranium collinum from Kashmir-GS-19 : 4 images. 3 posts by 3 authors. Geranium collinum Steph. ex Willd., Sp. Pl. 3:705. 1800. Perennial herb up to 80 cm tall with elongated horizontal rhizome, stems ascending to erect with retrorse hairs and some spreading glandular hairs; stipules lanceolate, 6-8 mm long; leaves opposite, petiole up to 12 cm long in lower leaves, upper shorter; blade rounded, 2-8 cm broad,5-7 lobed to about middle, segments wedge-shaped further 3-5-lobed; flowers 25-30 mm across, lilac to lilac-purple, usually in 2-flowered cluster on up to 15 cm long ascending to recurved peduncle; pedicel up to 5 cm long; bracteoles linear-lanceolate; sepals 5-9 mm long, elliptic-oblong, with 1-2 mm long mucro, pubescent; petals 12-18 mm long, obovate, rounded to retuse at tip; filaments triangular and hairy at base; mericarps pubescent, with up to 2.5 cm long beak. Photographed from Khillenmarg, Kashmir, about 3000 m altitude


Thanks Sir for showing.. perhaps we also recorded this during VOF Tour, but I do not have "eligible" pictures.. that's why only enjoying..

I currently cannot put a firm name on this - shall comment further in due course, though is often difficult with so little information to go on when only a small number of photos are taken.  KINDLY NOTE THAT THE 4TH IMAGE DOES NOT TALLY WITH THE FIRST THREE (assuming the third image does represent the lower leaves of the first two) - the flower looks like a variant of Geranium wallichianum to me.  This species has widely-varying flower colour.  There is a form in cultivation in the UK known as 'Buxton's Variety (sometimes but incorrectly, as 'Buxton's Blue).  A colleague of mine came across a variant similar to this on the Rohtang in 1989.  G.wallichianum is recorded from up to 3300m, so may well be found on Khelanmarg (albeit towards its upper limit altitude-wise).  The stipules are not shown in any of the photos, which in the case of G.wallichianum are usually diagnostic.  It is not unknown to have more than one species of Geranium growing near to each other/ amongst each other, meaning care needs to be taken to distinguish between them.  

Given that geraniums readily hybridise in cultivation one has to wonder about the possibility of hybrids when two geranium species meet in the wild?  I have yet to see the possibility of hybrids mentioned in any postings on eFI in relation to possible identification of any genera (nor apomictic genera like Taraxacum).  True, it is often hard enough to try and recognise which species a specimen belongs to, let alone consider hybrids!
Further to my recent post about photographing Geraniums.  I am far from certain that the true Geranium collinum is found in the Himalaya. This is a complicated matter. Let me try to explain. It has certainly been thought to in the past. Stewart e.g. listed this species from the Khardong La in his 'The Flora of Ladakh' (1916-17) - I have not seen the pressed specimen but from the altitude and location, I would think this is probably what I understand to be G.regelii. He also listed G.grandiflorum (which is now Geranium himalayense). The images above do not come close to my understanding of either of these species - nor G.pratense subsp. stewartianum a specimen of which I saw near Sonamarg which Peter Yeo at Cambridge identified as this in 1987.  Dickore & Klimes (2005) which is the most up-to-date checklist for Ladakh do not include G.collinum only G. himalayense, pratense, regelii and sibiricum. 
In 'The Valley of Flowers' book G.pratense, collinum, wallichianum and grevilleanum (now G.lambertii) were listed.
In the Notes Yeo supplied me, he draws attention to the problematical G.collinum-pratense-himalayense alliance. He considered this was particularly critical in the NW Himalaya with high quality pressed specimens needed (nowadays these can be supplemented and sometimes replaced by high quality digital images (provided the advice given below is followed). This alliance has pink to blue flowers (sometimes white) in which the stamen-tip and stigmas are never blackish-purple...
Thanks a lot ... for your very critical analysis. I assure you all images are from the same plant, I have even checked time of photography. Why it looks different to you I think is because it shows upper view of flowers, others lower view. 
I have cropped original image 1 to show stipules and bracts, and similar from G. wallichianum. You may compare to see clear differences.
To me G. wallichianum is a very distinct species, not to be easily confused with others. 
Fair enough but the main point is that the Geranium photographed at Khelamarg does not tally with what I understand to be G.lambertii.
Not sure if you have seen the images I sent of a form of this in cultivation in the UK - I will forward the images I sent to ...
Whilst I agree that G.wallichianum is quite distinctive, more than one geranium can get mixed up and I still think this has happened in images posted taken in Uttarakhand. 
I am getting tired now and need to get some sleep. I will provide a link to what I mean in the above paragraph and then forward the images of
Geranium lambertii.
Will also initially respond to your comment re: Geranium pratense. 
Thanks but the main issue is what species this geranium is. I remain uncertain. 
Are you familiar with Geranium kashmirianum?  In another post I have requested a description of this (and ideally images) and how this is distinguished from other geraniums in Kashmir?
Are you familiar with G.kishtvariense and how this is distinguished from other geraniums in Kashmir.
Are you familiar with G.swatense and how it is disntiguished from other geraniums.
Until I am comfortable recognising all the geraniums recorded from Kashmir, shall struggle to be sure of images posted and whether many represent a taxon not previously recorded.
As it now appears that what was G.pratense in Kashmir is now G.clarkei?  What about Geranium collinum?
Are you familiar with G.himalayense?  Are you familiar with G.regelii?
I would welcome seeing any geraniums you have photographed in the NW Himalaya.
To me these images appear similar to those at Geranium pratense from Kashmir

Balsaminaceae, Geraniaceae and Oxalidaceae Week: Geranium collinum Steph. ex Willd., Sp. Pl. 3:705. 1800.
Photographed from Khillenmarg, Kashmir, about 3000 m altitude
These Geraniums with radial symmetry look awesome.
This a replication of the posting immediately above.
To me these images appear similar to those at Geranium pratense from Kashmir
Habitat: sloping meadow
Habit: small herb, about 40 - 60 cm high; flower about 3 - 4 cm across
Not Geranium wallichianum in which stipules are much larger and broader and leaves with less dissected broader segments.
This appears to be Geranium pratense.
Thank you very much ... for the ID and clarification.
Am convinced this plant to be Geranium pratense.
I currently cannot put a firm name on this - shall comment further in due course. I am in agreement that this definitely not G.wallichianum.
It does seem to come within the G.collinum-pratense-himalayense complex but is not within what I understand to be G.himalayense from Ladakh. 

In 'The Valley of Flowers' book G.pratense, collinum, wallichianum and grevilleanum (now G.lambertii) are listed.  

Let me try to explain.  In the Notes Yeo supplied me, he draws attention to the problematical G.collinum-pratense-himalayense alliance.  He considered this was particularly critical in the NW Himalaya with high quality pressed specimens needed (nowadays these can be supplemented and sometimes replaced by high quality digital images (provided the advice given below is followed).  This alliance has pink to blue flowers (sometimes white) in which the stamen-tip and stigmas are never blackish-purple...
I consider it will be helpful for keen photographers, willing to make an additional effort, to know which parts of Geranium to photograph.  Having images of such parts of each geranium will greatly aid identification and enhance our understanding of the genus in the Himalaya - and perhaps you can help with the locating and identification of a species new-to-science!


 
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Balsaminaceae, Geraniaceae and Oxalidaceae Week :: DV03 :: 31 JUL - 02 AUG 12 :: Geranium pratense at Auli and Valley of Flowers: Geraniaceae
Geranium pratense L.
 
jer-AY-nee-um -- from the Greek geranos, crane; referring to the beak-like fruit ... Dave's Botanary
pray-TEN-see or pray-TEN-say -- referring to a meadow ... Dave's Botanary
commonly known as: meadow crane's bill, meadow geranium • Lahauli: porlo • Spiti: likatur
Native to: Europe, c Asia, n-w Himalaya; naturalized, cultivated elsewhere
References: Flowers of IndiaFlora of ChinaNPGS / GRIN ENVIS - FRLHT  
at Valley of Flowers on 02 AUG 12
Of the three Geranium, you have uploaded this morning, this one is very very pretty.

I currently cannot put a firm name on this (the species photographed in the top image, that is) - shall comment further in due course.  The situation is complicated further by the likelihood of more than one Geranium growing here and that both species are in the photos?  The lowest and top images do not, to me, match well. The leaf below the flower shown in the bottom image do not tally with the geranium in the top image. In the 3rd of the smaller images, the lower flower does not match the upper two. I also seem to be able to detect large stipules which suggest one of the two geraniums is Geranium wallichianum - the accompanying flowers and foliage support this - they certainly do not belong to the other Geranium and are not part of the G.collinium-pratense-himalayense alliance (see below).  Auli is certainly at the right sort of altitude to find G.wallichianum. So it seems likely that ... photographed two Geraniums, thinking that there was only one.  I have done this with other genera but just goes to show that some geraniums are not easy to recognise. 

In 'The Valley of Flowers' book G.pratense, collinum, wallichianum and grevilleanum (now G.lambertii) are listed.  

Let me try to explain.  In the Notes Yeo supplied me, he draws attention to the problematical G.collinum-pratense-himalayense alliance.  He considered this was particularly critical in the NW Himalaya with high quality pressed specimens needed (nowadays these can be supplemented and sometimes replaced by high quality digital images (provided the advice given below is followed).  This alliance has pink to blue flowers (sometimes white) in which the stamen-tip and stigmas are never blackish-purple...
I consider it will be helpful for keen photographers, willing to make an additional effort, to know which parts of Geranium to photograph.  Having images of such parts of each geranium will greatly aid identification and enhance our understanding of the genus in the Himalaya - and perhaps you can help with the locating and identification of a species new-to-science!


 
Granium pratense from Kashmir 
A large flowered species similar to himalayense and G. collinum in general appearance but 5-7 lobed smaller leaves, 3-5 cm across, with narrower segments which are narrowest at apex, narrowly ovate in shape, purple flowers fruiting pedicels erect in fruit, petals 15-20 mm long, fruit with beak less than 3.5 cm long.
Photographed from Gulmarg, Kashmir





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