Geranium lambertii


Common name: Lambert's Geranium
 

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Fwd: Geranium lambertii : 1 post by 1 author. Attachments (12)
I think it will be useful to have a set of reference images of Geranium lambertii of a plant cultivated in the UK.
Unfortunately, the shot taken of the stipules was completely out-of-focus, so was no point including. 
According to 'Flowers of the Himalaya' this species is only found from Uttarakhand eastwards.
They say flowers large, nodding, pale pink or rarely white, with purple veins. Anthers and ovaries blackish. 
According to Nasir, collected by Kitamura & Honda from Swat; he had not seen the specimen, but felt it would make an interesting westward extension of the range, if correct.
Stewart does not list this species from Pakistan or Kashmir.
So, here with a dozen images to help with recognising G.lambertii (previously G.grevilleanum) - it has been recorded from 'The Valley of Flowers', Nepal (@ 3200-4200m) and Sikkim, Chumbi & Bhutan @ 2350-4200m in clearings in Blue Pine and Fir forests also juniper scrub.  Forms from these Eastern districts have pale blue violet to bright lilac flowers, rarely with darkish veins.
 
Fwd: Geranium lambertii - further evidence from Peter Yeo : 1 post by 1 author. Attachments (1)
Further to my comments that I doubt if the images posted which have been identified as Geranium lambertii on your site are correct: the first two entries with pink flowers from Chamba & Kashmir, then those from Uttarakhand, both of which look different to those from the first two.  I do not consider any of them come close to Geranium lambertii.
I have just posted about what was thought to be Geranium 'pratense' in Nepal.
Yeo, who wrote the account for Geranium in 'An Enumeration of the Flowering Plants of Nepal' gave a key to distinguish between species and it seems a far superior key to most for most genera used in floras all over the world.
The key separates G.'pratense' and G.himalayense from G.lambertii which he says has stamens densely clothed with long white patent hairs; genitalia blackish; stigmas c. 5mm long (they are 2.5-4mm in the first two species); nodding flowers with white or pale pinkish petals. Not mention of full pink or other colours.
The amount of detail visible in the images of the specimens thought to be G.lambertii clearly do not come close to Yeo's description. Yes,
this is for Nepal Geranium lambertii but not likely to be much different further West.
If you read Yeo's descriptions and look at the images (accepting you cannot see much detail in some of them) but I think it is clear they are not Geranium lambertii.
Give me time, I shall offer suggestions as to what I think they are.
I attach one image of the selection I posted of a specimen in cultivation in the UK which I do consider to be G.lambertii.
Take a look and I think you will agree it does tally with Yeo's description of this species from Nepal.
This is without considering the supporting evidence of the foliage.

Geranium lambertii Sweet, Geraniaceae. 4: t. 338. 1827.
Syn: Geranium grevilleanum Wall.
Perennial herb with thick short vertical rootstock; branches trailing or ascending, up to 50 cm tall; Leaves opposite, stipules broadly lanceolate, free, 8-13 mm long, upper narrower; leaf blade 5-angled, 5-7-lobed to about middle, 6-8 cm broad, with rhomboid-cuneate lobes, appressed-hairy; flowers pale pink, rose-coloured or white,25-35 mm across,in 2-flowered cluster on up to 16 cm long peduncle covered with spreading hairs; pedicel up to 5 cm long; sepals elliptic-ovate, 8-14 mm long, mucro 1.5-2 mm long; petals 15-22 mm long, hairy at base, tip rounded or depressed; filaments lanceolate, hairy outside, anthers black; mericarps smooth, beak ap to 3 cm long.
Photographed from Apharwat Kashmir. The leaves resemble G. wallichianum but stipules are much narrow and free and petals rose to white.
Thanks Sir for this new plant, perhaps the size of anthers and filaments also differentiates this from G. wallichianum..
I am uncertain what this is. It does not match well my understanding of what G.lambertii is plus there are no records of this species for Kashmir.  Shall look into this further - there are several species of Geranium in Kashmir and bordering areas I am unfamiliar with.  This specimen from Aphawat could be one of these.  Plus there is the possibility of new species of this genus from this area - some new ones have been recognised in past decades.
Same 2015 Paper
Distribution: India (Himachal Pradesh, Uttarakhand, Sikkim, Kashmir) Nepal, Bhutan, Tibet.
http://www.scitechnol.com/an-assessment-of-diversity-of-genus-geranium-lgeraniaceae-in-india-with-special-emphasis-on-indian-himalayan-region-zkyo.pdf
Distribution: India (Himachal Pradesh, Uttarakhand, Sikkim, Kashmir) Nepal, Bhutan, Tibet.
Pl see paper on diversity Geranium published in 2015
Wagh et al., J Biodivers Manage Forestry 2015, 4:2
http://dx.doi.org/10.4172/2327-417.1000140
Thanks for drawing my attention to this. However, in light of Geranium lambertii not being known from Kashmir by Stewart (or indeed
NW of Kumaon at that time) and Nasir being sceptical about single collection reported in Swat (Pakistan) - he had not seen the specimen to
comment further, caution/uncertainty about provisional identifications of this species from a small number of photos only (not showing full characteristics) seems reasonable to me.
As for the paper 'An Assessment of Diversity Geranium.... in India with Special Emphasis on Indian Himalayan Region' (2015), the authors themselves, who with all due respect are not specialists in the genus and relied solely on what literature was available to them. They personally
are unlikely to have much familiarity with the genus in the wild, many herbaria or cultivation. They did not consult Peter Yeo (thought as he passed away some years back that was not possible but it is highly unlikely that they would have done so, even if he had still been alive). It is fair to say that it has been to the disadvantage of Indian botany that contact and collaboration with Western botanists (or Japanese ones - who have done a lot of worthwhile joint projects in Nepal) and plant specialists has been discouraged at a senior level for decades,
Returning to the authors of the 'Assessment', they correctly state in the 'Conclusions' that there is much confusion in identification especially of perennial forms which are often considered difficult of discrimination. They emphasise that the genus needs a revisionary study to comprehensively explore the genus in India and to review existing collection of the herbaria in light of current taxonomic researches. The present study is a prelude for further investigation on Indian Geranium.
I note e.g. their first entry of Geranium clarkei named by Yeo (not known to Stewart or Nasir) yet they give no synoymns or indicate which species in Kashmir, G.clarkei was previously understood to be.
Yes, they give in a rather odd sequence of distribution of this species: Himachal Pradesh, Uttarakhand, Sikkim then Kashmir (within Indian territory) for Geranium lambertii yet on what basis, given it was not previously known in Kashmir or HP?  Where are the herbarium specimens which have been determined as this species?  Surely, when it is claimed that a species has been found in a region it was not known from before, strong evidence is required to support the claim.
Otherwise, how can such extensions to ranges be checked?  I have just posted a set of images of what I consider to be Geranium lambertii in cultivation on eFI.  This allows others to inspect them (if they disagree, they can say why) and comment enabling a meaningful comparison with specimens from Kashmir, HP and Uttarakhand considered to be this species.
Too often, identifications of Himalayan flora are based upon comparison between scrappy newly (i.e. in the past few decades) gathered pressed specimens (with few, if any field notes  - at time no voucher specimens at all) with often scrappy, poorly pressed, badly preserved, 19th Century reference specimens or by 'matching' with brief guides such as 'Flowers of the Himalaya' (this is not a Flora and covers only a fraction of the total flora of the region) which has at best, single small images and summarised descriptions. Quickly 'matching' with such guides alone is not a reliable method of plant identification and whilst can result in reliable identifications for distinctive species but often misidentifications. I find that most Westerners visiting the Himalaya and Indian botanists use 'Flowers of the Himalaya' poorly.  Few seem to have actually read the written descriptions nor checked altitudinal nor geographic distributions to see if their highly provisional identification tallies - if not, it should be checked further....... 
I hope, if an Indian botanist undertakes a revisionary study of Geranium they do not rely too heavily on just herbarium specimens (many of which were collected in the 19th century) in Indian herbaria.  Extensive field-work needs to be undertaken and greater collaboration with foreign botanists, especially if specialists in the genera being studied exist and plant enthusiasts/horticulturalists and specialist gardeners along with specialist horticultural societies in the West. For genera which have ornamental merit there may well be expertise about them in cultivation in the West such was the case for Peter Yeo at Cambridge University.  As far as I know he seldom (if ever) visited the Himalaya himself (though corresponded with others, like myself, who had) so his prime source of information were plants in cultivation (along with pressed specimens in UK and European herbaria he inspected). I know of expertise (and publications) on quite a number of genera well-represented in the Himalaya - though some of the experts have now passed away.  I realise, as with professional botanists, not everyone is willing to help but for those who were, it is such a pity that their expertise was not put to good use by Indian botanists in the past.
I remain doubtful that the geraniums named as G.lambertii from Kashmir are this species.
I think we should treat G. lambertii page as normal page and not ?
Regarding my upload there should be no doubt 
eFlora of China gives [Bhutan, N India, Kashmir, Nepal, Pakistan]. as Distribution
Paper cited by me Wagh et al. 2015 cite distribution as India (Himachal Pradesh, Uttarakhand, Sikkim, Kashmir) Nepal, Bhutan, Tibet.
Flora of Jammu & Kashmir published by BSI, 2002 cites specimen from Kashmir Baltal (same altitude as Apharwat) by Gammie
Blatter, 1927,  features this species in Beautiful Flowers of Kashmir page 66
Sharma & Jamwal List this species in Flora of Upper Lidder Valley, 1988.



 
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This Geranium sp- was seen at VoF with white coloured flowers.

Good chances of Geranium lambertii
What wonderfully-coloured flowers.  I am unsure which species this is - though appears different to the others suggested to be G.lambertii.  Still do not consider this geranium fits with my understanding of G.lambertii
Take a look at the images I have recently posted of a cultivated form of what I do consider is G.lambertii by way of comparison. ..........


 
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Chamba upper reaches - id al130811a:  Looked to me at first like the Himalayan Geranium... but then it seemed different...
Location Chamba
Altitude 3500 mts

Habit herb
Habitat wild
Plant height 18-20 inches

I don't think G. wallichianum. The large ovate stipules and bracts are missing. Rosy flowers and linear bracts and stipules suggest G. grevilleanum
The new name for G. grevilleanum Wall. is G. lambertii. For most Western Himalaya plants you may refer to eFlora of Pakistan http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=5&taxon_id=113475
At present I am unsure what this is but have doubts about it being Geranium lambertii (have just posted images of a cultivated specimen of this species for reference purposes).  G.lambertii has not previously been recorded from Chamba.  There are a number of geraniums in Kashmir & H.P. I am not familiar with.  Shall spend some time looking at these to see if this plant fits any.  I also consider there is every chance than one or two more species will be recognised in the coming decades.

Thank you indeed... that is a very helpful guideline to photograph Geraniums...


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Flora of Uttarakhand- Herb62 for Id- JM (9 messages, 4 pictures, 27.11.10);
Wild Herb captured on 13/8/10 during the trek from Ghangaria (around 11,000 ft.) to Hemkunt Sahib (around 14000 ft.):  
May be close to images at Geranium lambertii ? as per comparative images at Geranium
Although correct id may be different but I am keeping similar images under this page, till final id is established.


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Vof Week: Geranium pratense from Valley: 9 posts by 6 authors. Attachments (8)
Geranium pratense from Valley
Pls validate
I think it could be G. wallichianum??
http://apps.kew.org/herbcat/getImage.do?imageBarcode=K000729551
Looks like Geranium himalyense. Not G. walichianum in any case, in my view.

I currently cannot put a firm name on this - shall comment further in due course. Further to my recent post about photographing Geraniums.  These images do not match well what I understand to be G.himalayense in Ladakh but assuming this species is also found in VoF, then, given the geographic and climatic/habitat differences, it would be a surprise if they did. This is a complicated matter.  

In 'The Valley of Flowers' book G.pratense, collinum, wallichianum and grevilleanum (now G.lambertii) are listed.  

Let me try to explain.  In the Notes Yeo supplied me, he draws attention to the problematical G.collinum-pratense-himalayense alliance.  He considered this was particularly critical in the NW Himalaya with high quality pressed specimens needed (nowadays these can be supplemented and sometimes replaced by high quality digital images (provided the advice given below is followed).  This alliance has pink to blue flowers (sometimes white) in which the stamen-tip and stigmas are never blackish-purple...


May be close to images at Geranium lambertii ? as per comparative images at Geranium


Although correct id may be different but I am keeping similar images under this page, till final id is established. 



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VOF Week: Geranium sp-G10 -- at VoF: Geranium sp-G10 -- at VoF.
Perhaps G. himalayense
I currently cannot put a firm name on this - shall comment further in due course.  However, the flowers do not closer to what I understand to be
G.himalayense (from Ladakh) than those posted from VoF by ...  Without images of the lower leaves, rest of plant, it is hard.

In 'The Valley of Flowers' book G.pratense, collinum, wallichianum and grevilleanum (now G.lambertii) are listed.  

Let me try to explain.  In the Notes Yeo supplied me, he draws attention to the problematical G.collinum-pratense-himalayense alliance. He considered this was particularly critical in the NW Himalaya with high quality pressed specimens needed (nowadays these can be supplemented and sometimes replaced by high quality digital images (provided the advice given below is followed). This alliance has pink to blue flowers (sometimes white) in which the stamen-tip and stigmas are never blackish-purple...
I consider it will be helpful for keen photographers, willing to make an additional effort, to know which parts of Geranium to photograph.  Having images of such parts of each geranium will greatly aid identification and enhance our understanding of the genus in the Himalaya - and perhaps you can help with the locating and identification of a species new-to-science!
 

PHOTOGRAPHING GERANIUMS: IF only the first one or two flowers have come out don't bother to collect as the form of inflorescence will not be evident.
The rootstock is important; get enough to show whether compact or creeping, or annual.  You can photograph the base of the plant which should provide this information.  Clearly, one requires permission from the authorities to uproot a plant.  There is still  a need and indeed role for the collection of pressed specimens for herbaria in India but that is primarily the domain of staff of botanic gardens/ institutions. 
 In the early stages of flowering look out for the best-developed unripe fruits available. 
 If fruit is ripe try to include both dehisced and undehisced states. 
 If the fruits are falling with the seeds inside them, collect some (many geraniums disperse their seed explosively but some seed is often retained). 
Include some loose petals when pressing (detach if necessary).  Expose stamens to show filament shape and hairs by taking 2 or 3 sepals off a flower from which petals have recently dropped. 
Smoothing out one or two leaves and flowers as you close the press may be helpful; a few separately pressed basal and lower/middle stem leaves are often useful. 
Wilted specimens can be very misleading. 
Notes should be taken as to flower posture, colour and patterning of petals, colour of stigmas, anthers and distal parts of filaments (not necessary if your photos show these). 
And don't forget to ensure the stipules are clearly shown - something that would have been obviously in pressed specimens, so not mentioned above by Yeo.


May be close to images at Geranium lambertii ? as per comparative images at Geranium
Although correct id may be different but I am keeping similar images under this page, till final id is established. 


 
https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/cd1e45c5061c9816/IMG_4299.jpg?part=0.3&view=1&vt=ANaJVrHH6OnjNtlFMRooemNs4NuZRDdgG7Rsh5qGAmjCUp_mioEMyWw5xHSlF5MTb1HwsmsrL6dPxSK3PbTGsV6Zgs_5xv2YAYhqLE5PpN9P0EeyxpSDAp8
Balsaminaceae, Geraniaceae and Oxalidaceae Week:: Geraniaceae:: Geranium himalayense ?? at VoF - PKA38 :  4 images. 2 posts by 2 authors.
Yet another Geranium sp - at VoF. Earlier during VoF week, ... has indicated that this could be Geranium himalayense.
This is a duplicate of above posting.


https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/d7cc5e6451f7211d/Geranium-2%20(4).JPG?part=0.4&view=1&vt=ANaJVrHHnQ5CkMCu1xdEvlC_A_7JWxiQ6HWdpqh3ozCMtbfSYB26c6YHJZP9QbP1cYkhFQ0gFN_pZHeCbUJkX_nDEUB3BQJSO3U8BHTAyzOqu4y2dDLt46A
https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/d7cc5e6451f7211d/Geranium-2%20(1).JPG?part=0.1&view=1&vt=ANaJVrGQ4Eg77GlAdY0aW9YSxqIY-mLkpa0RhcqadVaL6ZeZrzmGXDjs4w29JjOHN_vG8qzA4bl9vwHkpAYZo2_u5owpxNgjQ09T1bVfM4s7X39jEzZq9n8
https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/d7cc5e6451f7211d/Geranium-2%20(5).JPG?part=0.5&view=1&vt=ANaJVrEXEpz1q4jKVBFFZqCWS-5j4yDuvJoczBcy-BZQE4QdC8iCUZIc4AH3h7Cgw2fmsWKS2aGp9KCm7A8FbC3VVeGvi3XmOv3FF9EjMnV4w3D9yudDTFg
https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/d7cc5e6451f7211d/Geranium-2%20(6).JPG?part=0.6&view=1&vt=ANaJVrHuSX0eAWWBj3tLOAMid8BIeT9vIClya_Bz3cnz7eP7P7MtIRUaeSbnnQ9w6XCPLhu-IqVckkdrTCEpAnCRhpmw6WWOYdgY6wOBR3hzvUVscQYOd8E
https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/d7cc5e6451f7211d/Geranium-2%20(3).JPG?part=0.3&view=1&vt=ANaJVrF1jnKkwkcFR8Utzebi3-BDoR_A9CXFIN2C2CHT4bFb5oWoEj1hqJU8HJi37p1aeQ4B-47f_q-sKqCKGLkyTbK0jTT-f_Kgw6jGUhUpYcpRkgu8wrU
Vof Week: 12092012 BS-2 Geranium sm for id from Valley: Geranium sm for id from Valley
may be Geranium lambertii or G. wallichianum??
I think may not belong to either of the two.
Both are characterised by nearly black filaments anstigma.
G. wallichianum has much broader large stipules missing here.
G. lambertii has distinctly broader and densely hairy filaments not seen here.
Leaves may help further
May be close to images at Geranium lambertii ? as per comparative images at Geranium
Although correct id may be different but I am keeping similar images under this page, till final id is established.


https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/e05e4814d5239199/IMG_2782.jpg?part=0.4&view=1&vt=ANaJVrHikyag4_9-8ZPiDNVxu0WZKpabUlpce_soVClqAUoVWQMUh5baeNyKnOqoPTC5TzPda3lTeiRPvrpp86q-qLeuuSDhJZDI6iM9CIOrxb5-rU7rJU8
https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/e05e4814d5239199/IMG_2781.jpg?part=0.3&view=1&vt=ANaJVrHQ-rESKd_EFUriOxLB_7fkMLVUbTHnH8p4kdOHVnL3iMAQWHH6zX3dnb9heh9Fee-57EInBKiYni9Tq9Au39gGRSYVZMwpHuMja6IiSOXPT_OSLhs
 
https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/e05e4814d5239199/IMG_2780.jpg?part=0.2&view=1&vt=ANaJVrHtnA8EBAHxjXilQ9qPIiPD0LZ1BjY1uxhdnmhmRfhd0QlC7tJuaPNGaxsO-X6K2IRkwhk2iMCPgdi4AyfKikuR8d6GxzGR_u3sgzFn89SVnP8uaJc
VOF Week: Geranium sp-G5 -- at VoF: Geranium sp-G5 -- at VoF.
That s nice set of pic esp the last one with the developing seed/fruit...

Keeping it under Geranium lambertii ? for the time being due to similar posts.


 https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-9kQSgfKg67w/T3AkjIBOsSI/AAAAAAAAAJQ/fDo7XDOusjQ/s1600/Geranium+himalayense.JPG
Bot. name: Geranium himalayense
Family: Geraniaceae
Location: Paddar valley district Kishtwar J&K.
Date: 6th August 2011
Altitude: About 3600 meters asl
Plant Habit/habitat: Wild herb
May be Geranium pratense, but again stipules and calyx lobes need to be checked.
I currently cannot put a firm name on this - shall comment further in due course. Only a single photo and not a good one - the nearer flower
is out-of-focus and one cannot see the stipules or much other detail, so makes it very hard with a specimen that may be part of a difficult alliance/ complex (see below) 
Let me try to explain. In the Notes Yeo supplied me, he draws attention to the problematical G.collinum-pratense-himalayense alliance. He considered this was particularly critical in the NW Himalaya with high quality pressed specimens needed (nowadays these can be supplemented and sometimes replaced by high quality digital images (provided the advice given below is followed). This alliance has pink to blue flowers (sometimes white) in which the stamen-tip and stigmas are never blackish-purple...
Keeping it under Geranium lambertii ? for the time being.


 
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