Sonchus asper

Sonchus asper (L.) Hill, Herb. Brit. 1: 47. 1769. 47 1769. (Syn: Sonchus aemulus Merino ....);
 
Plants perennial, up to 2 m tall, leaves mostly entire or denticulate, not spiny margined, heads 3-5 cm across.......................S. arvensis auct. non L. (now Sonchus wightianus DC.)
Plant annual, up to 1.5 m tall; leaves pinnately divided, margins spinulose, heads 1.5-2.5 cm across.......................S. asper
 
As per efi thread :  Perhaps no pair of species has been as confusing for me as distinction between Sonchus oleraceous and S. asper. This confusion has been more so once I started observing specimens in Delhi more closely. Classical distinction between the two species is commonly based on sharply spiny leaf margins and rounded basal auricles in S. asper and absence or spiny margins are very small spiny teeth and straight basal auricles in S. oleraceous.
While studying the specimens in my area critically I noticed that young specimens especially in early part of the season say in March-early April in Delhi the plants are with no obvious marginal spines and straight basal auricles with acute tips of lobes, but same plants towards the end of April have sharply spiny leaves, and some auricles are clearly rounded and some with straight acute auricles; 
 


Sonchus asper differing from closely related S. oleraceous in rounded basal auricles and spiny leaf margins. Photographed from Delhi.
   
https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/7c18ed33d8b56159/DSCN5781.jpg?part=0.1&view=1&vt=ANaJVrGCj-sbI_oX2kx9CJ_ugS6QmZ5FwhSf_6BcigmShg0qTaLtpjP8NP-pPpJBgzsthbYaSmw9d6UAbNsdAqajzatFj6hrrh2N_Vi3IXJ3gGQoMmhnO8U
 
https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/7c18ed33d8b56159/DSCN5782.jpg?part=0.2&view=1&vt=ANaJVrF8b9av0sjNcwebxbLHfThIU5n3-tMyBCnQMOC8y9HuXaK4p8cpZYwmp8cqDk_K1yN01k_lVGGGlspTpUaJuiHbx-D2VEIY4XXCVlIs7ZcUn0tNSnQ
Sonchus id kalatope al150311: This could be belonging to Thistle family... but which one
What is the difference between Sonchus asper and S. arvensis?
Location Kalatope, Chamba district
Altitude 2100 mt
Habitat wild
Habit herb
Season March 
-  Sonchus asper 
    Plants perennial, up to 2 m  tall, leaves mostly entire or denticulate, not spiny margined, heads 3-5 cm across.......S. arvensis
    Plant annual, up to 1.5 m tall; leaves pinnately divided, margins spinulose, heads 1.5-2.5 cm across.......................S. asper
https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/dd818820a882f0e6/DSCN7525.jpg?part=0.1&view=1&vt=ANaJVrGGbqg6JzmPhohEDAYbIgHdodNE5eNW4Lk0f_Hs9YfiKPFkXtkOEYQb_iwVVvIUSS4llZ_fNse8cBHZNO08pYU5xDWq8NcNsG0tntkx8ZU28CCkNo4
 
Sending the leaf view of this one too...
- Sochus asper, but one of those doubtful cases, after seeing your typical S. asper in another thread.
- Do we find any other varieties apart from S. asper and S. arvensis in India?
 - S. oleraceous is the commonest of all
https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/dfaaacf4ba03f855/DSCN7573.jpg?part=0.1&view=1&vt=ANaJVrEHOzUIEIXRj6AuC22IyAhjrwqsB2T-IuPGuj0h62IXtXRSBeklL3HPt_OrhvvZdiW9lbz_wCrsJTWlXO8kpwAUxBlxyXmZCEP8xZ7kV_Ct13aCF6Q
 
Sir, could this be the S. oleraceous.. I am sending a photo of the comparison of the two leaf bases.. the pointed one should be S. oleraceous according to
http://www.sbs.utexas.edu/mbierner/bio406d/images/pics/ast/sonchus_ol...
- My exerience of S. asper and S. oleraceous leads me to think that there is lot of intermixing. A plant which looks like S. oleraceous with no spines and straight auricles tends to have spines and some rounded auricles when mature. There are only two photographs (one mine from Delhi and One yours) which I have been able to confirm S. asper hundred per cent.


Date/Time- 11th March, 2012

Location- Place- Merrut, Uttar Pradesh

Habitat- Wild

Plant Habit- Shrub/Herb 

common name- Doodhi

link- http://www.projectnoah.​org/spottings/9511469



https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/914943e28ba61391/Sonchus%20(4).JPG?part=0.1&view=1&vt=ANaJVrGI3tIimS-EVe9zC6oJJATIHYXLnS5QPVwBsgph2x0QerbqewOHmhOz2F5396sswC8aMl_zU4Kv5VvKsHcXm52VJUUOAjTzURk-GpCSwjG4VitGDJY
https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/d58aa93eb414b27e/Sonchus%20(2).JPG?part=0.5&view=1&vt=ANaJVrEZZ1UmjvVJ6FdKwkwC-Q4TNOY1MV7rCjV9i6LxWKM2u_34GcevOR5QfxHhZOdSMoAy91bGOEs0R9D7kHK3Ux_R5fPvxF0EGl1yeWFtAyPoxbSmt2E
Sonchus for id 040211MK1: 
 Please help to id this Asteraceae member. I think this is a species of Sonchus. Is this S. arvensis?

Date/Time- 24-01-2011 / 10:40 AM

Location- Place, Altitude, GP ca.2200asl; Ooty, TN

Habitat- Garden/ Urban/ Wild/ Type-  garden

Plant Habit- herb

Height/Length-  c 1 feet

Leaves Type/ Shape/ Size-  ca.8 x 3 cm; auricled

Inflorescence Type/ Size-  5 cm longer

Flowers Size/ Colour/ Calyx/ Bracts-  yellow; c. 3 cm across


Not arvensis for sure
Most probably S. asper (though often confused with S. oleraceous)
Looks like S. asper 
 
https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/77141a8061c81b6d/DSCN1224.JPG?part=0.1&view=1&vt=ANaJVrG-uD-V3t9cSAtf6c3wfKNpCiAFyBKsvC2QkS-MllR8bDmH0mw_g1_jBnoQdOJbPb6n8kVK42C6QBPcHZPE0WbTXm0-ydNoUaXT30AiJrAJfOYV5Ow
 
Wild Plant for ID : Nasik : 041111 : AK-1: A wild plant found at a farm at Nasik, on the 24th of August,11.
Yellow flower seen.
Thistle?
A guess... is this Sonchus arvensis?
Sonchus asper
 
https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/8173cf362f4ffb17/100_5197.JPG?part=0.1&view=1&vt=ANaJVrFtaZRIsiPL688281cziS9hVEj8MBQhmNYwW3QUJ7cXNzpHm5iOm-8AFxJlvenWeRj2Ku710_LctdlE4Bc-Suw8-Zfvfa2umr8MKyu85SVeTxYQ8ic
 
Jawa Asteraceae: 
 Could you help me ID our Asteraceae please. Thank you.
Sonchus asper, I hope
I agree with ... on Sonchus asper.
 
Sonchus asper (L.) Garsault is a common herb in Pantnagar during spring time.
It is considered as an Invasive Alien Species in India.
 
 
https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/2f0852dcd378dd57/IMG_1567_09Dec14.jpg?part=0.1.3&view=1&vt=ANaJVrGeFArThyKDmsfEDoCAaCj6cUS5YdoNFhUixSv0Of9nsD7r-VYw4i07htT0pq9lFOOX1a3N1vIayulF2-p0tDU004v4R1KRwrYJYq4mixLa51TrO5I&google_abuse=GOOGLE_ABUSE_EXEMPTION%3DID%3D2bb280574fa29e45:TM%3D1556002967:C%3Dr:IP%3D103.252.164.147-:S%3DAPGng0u5SM8qoLHlTtuAeqixonVBEfwYsA%3B+path%3D/%3B+domain%3Dgoogle.com%3B+expires%3DTue,+23-Apr-2019+10:02:47+GMT
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https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/2f0852dcd378dd57/IMG_1564_09Dec14.jpg?part=0.1.1&view=1&vt=ANaJVrFpMAStkI4B92TN7jgEWs1PLOE1s_X0n0aRV_hBo4rpngDV8UadJtglNjeCzvUm88zQWa8RXQbIpzJsSnHOOR3JHnXYQFo5ptwkQlfWKwywys9xgTo
What flowering plant?/ABDEC24 : 11 posts by 4 authors. Attachments (3).  
This one was growing next to the Flax on the wall. It's leaves are characteristic. If I am not mistaken it has a yellow dandelion like flower. Please advise.
Looks like the prickly lettuce
Lactula sp
has milky sap that sticky
if lactula:
differentials include L. serriola and L. canadensis
close ups of the basal leaves, flattened stem if prickly or not and diameter of the flower after they open and the full plant in profile
would help you differentiate lactulas
====
if not lactula... best way to know is to see if the stem is hollow or not
Dandelions have hollow stems, as do the sonchus
sonchus sow thistle also have yellow flowers on branched stem, but the stem is hollow. Lactula does not..
===
if neither of these features
then
autumn hawkbit...
an eastern european weed
smooth basal leaves in description but pictures do not tally with some pic on the net
====
difficulty arises with autumn when leaves start curling up some leaves and stem ...go red
junk accumulates...
most descriptions are for "weed"s growing in fields or grassy lands
you have mountainous rocky terrain... may make for biological differences..
and a large tourist and immigrant population, gods only knows what they knowingly or unknowingly in their luggage, shoes etc carried in to Dharamshala over the decades..
if not them, then the caravans..
but a careful following of a key would help...
better than jumping to a conclusion...
heres a key to this difficulty...
read it then take more pictures... of several plants
good luck
if someone from an indian univeristy has studied this group they would know it in a jiffy.. and can tell us why they think what they say it is... that would make it simpler... but I did not find any names... but that's not here nor there. Somebody in our membership will know the plant or a professor who knows.. 
Thank you ... for such a detailed description. I will get to the plant tomorrow and check for the details you suggested. 
Sonchus asper ?
Sonchus asper 
Here we are ... The yellow flower is roughly 1cm in diameter. There was a little white sap when I plucked the stem and the stem has thick walls and a little tunnel. A different plant had dandelion like wispy attachments. Where does this lead us?
Attachments (5)

good show
you are thorough
Yellow flower heads: dandelion and Sow thistle (sonchus)
Hollow stem: Dandelion and Sow thistle
so far both
but your diagnosis clinching picture is number three in this lot..
A: leaf has prickles
(though leaf itself is much narrower than I have seen, but I saw them in summer herbal seminars in the field
and even ate the young leaves)
B: stem hugging start of the leaf: sonchus
sometimes this phenomenon is called "ear like "
or "complex auriculate" attachment of the leaf
C: red stem is sometimes shown in pictures of Sonchus asper.
(i have not seen them, all we ever saw were green with slight ridges)
stem hugging leaf : shown very well in tweo blogs that talk of weed in usa
1: https://wildweedwisdom.wordpress.com/tag/sonchus-asper/
2: http://sparkleberrysprings.com/v-web/b2/?p=164
Hope this helps
NOW I wish ... will give us his wisdom
Thank you ... Your diagnosis and the first link leave no doubt that it is Sonchus asper.
... had given their opinion before but I was hoping they confirm the first tentative diagnosis after new pictures.
But no other replies so far.
The person in the first link considers it nutritional food while the one writing the second blog advises to get rid of it. I am inclined to support the first. What do you think?
Don't eat it
the sap may be toxic.
what I remember is renal damage
wild lettuce Lactula affects brain, induces sleep... and spuriously causes hypotension, so much that person has to lie down to get some blood to the brain (personal exp while on a weekend wild foraging expedition and many of the class mates during such weekends related similar experiences). And Culpepper all those hundreds of years ago and romans too used lactula the wild lettuce to induce sleep... is toxic in hands of lay persons... you have to be an experienced herbalist to use it.. or a modern forager with a lot of experience..
((Some commercially grown lettuce varieties from some farms in countries where a large variety is grown has been known to do this... induce hypotension and or sleep.. which seed lot or variety did this we dont know...
in India I only find the light green leafy and sometimes iceberg heads from Bangalore region. i have not noted any problem other than need to wash 'em in water , vinegar soak or permanganate soaking etc because of many possibilities of parasites ... often dangerous ones. ))
Sonchus and lactula are very closely related and I would not want to take a chance... Its not in normal use for a reason...since all our edible vegetables ultimately arose in the wild ones... and natural selection or observations brought us the most suitable for human consumption to horticulture and then to the market place. If sonchus was really that good ( as good as the foragers say they find it...) why was it not introduce to the horticulture.) something to think about.
Also these foragers were bred to it... they grew up in forested areas of europe or the american midwest or deep rural areas on farms where they grew up with these and foraged, ate them with their grannies for a long time.
We urban Indians did not... I surmise you are an urban Indian. Just reading about something on the net ... internet is full of hyperbole and half truths .. so do not eat any wild food... probably not good for you.
if your grandma and pa or parents took you in their hikes or into their fields or farms and taught you to eat the wild stuff, do what they taught you.
***
ALL FORAGING TRIPS LEADERS including Steve Brill and even Bradford Angier who wrote a famous book : "Field Guide to Edible Wild Plants" always started classes with many many cautionary tales. And yet Professor Nancy Turner, an ethnobotanist who always finds something objectionable in almost everything...always cautioned about toxicity of everything under the son is curiously silent about the lactulas and thistles... well!!!
SO I am a bit on the cautionary side , mostly because of possible renal damage.. we in the modern-times are exposed to so many toxins, why add another deliberately. Kidney damage is not fun.
DONT EAT THEM...
--------------- 
If you want something more than the store bought bland lettuce, try this: sutton seeds sells seeds for salad greens including rocket/arugula (good detoxifier) ... grow and eat them... I do , even in the balcony tubs..
Come to think of it...
you are in Dharamsala ... a wild mix of Tibetan herbalists and European or American folks who may know and run classes ... if there are some serious people who really know .. and see if they run good classes .....
I know we all like when experts tall us we made a right choice...
but... may be busy selecting their cases for this fortnight or they might thinks this weed a bread and butter easy case...
but it was not for me with out going the id points...
and learned something along the way..
se la vie
 

Sonchus ¿ asper ?
Place, Altitude: Girivan, Maval (about 2470 ft asl)
Date, Time: 27 JUN 10, 07:23 am
Habitat: wild, scrub vegetation along road
Habit: herb, standing erect about 40 - 50 cm, flower-head about 7 - 10 mm across.

Dear friends, I think this must be Sonchus asper; please validate.
efi page on Sonchus asper
 
This species of Sonchus was shot from my village in Kaithal.. the closest I can suggest is Sonchus asper ... please validate..
As per BSI -
leaves with acute auricles ------- S. oleraceus
leaves with obtuse auricles ------- S. asper
  
https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/e06587461368b695/IMG_3693-r.JPG?part=0.4&view=1&vt=ANaJVrFnbMLRq5CE3Jxlfd6ye3JPl24c2qbGcZ8S_yVxmzehfLtRN7c9t4KyfcuR8CqW_hOeOr8USdud-Gh3ui6z-zHGNp2Wzbzi-M1992XKwWk9XJBDdZ0

https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/e06587461368b695/IMG_3636-r.jpg?part=0.1&view=1&vt=ANaJVrGhmtNfod6UqoEk2IJ87lQsm_cs21tvAo_IyuPMini4T9kHfT368FqXvykx4S6hsjob2cu64NV7WUVfseBerxRoZUbqwhfsyZGuuYfra9AD7d1Dtkk
https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/e06587461368b695/IMG_3620-r.JPG?part=0.2&view=1&vt=ANaJVrESZbd8ATMHi7tg_Fn8GKkZeTNZHaJE8XMvJ6S3ADgCmJa-23APVvV1uM3JDxhodlI7KBJpv6HZB4dKLNB5kvQZMP17gE682Co3cfRu88RvuR3422E
https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/e06587461368b695/IMG_3692-r.jpg?part=0.3&view=1&vt=ANaJVrEs2x0LbJXl7fdTYW78523FkItQ4zinBtpCSijlymHqdJsTUrpfP4hQkn9Pds0CzCpf4k9gfDyhQU-edrSjoOyo73l9AnKtrlDYdt3xIzSs676VI8c
 
identification no170111sn1: date/time:jan11
location:mulshi, pune. (all my photos are from the same place. my farm.)
habitat:wild
height:about 3 ft.

Sonchus asper a weed in Kolkata 
 
https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/6ad55ea596ad0/20170706_101659.jpg?part=0.1&view=1&vt=ANaJVrF1PBQiBWHr9ieumZcCkkAVcrwI-AjlcSDuh9-z7GYavc0XZKuynmNmEJ0JvI-AbT5CfukKwGjKytIaRkqsiNf2cO0aOr2JkgbzNurGOrnuPbENlT8
https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/6ad55ea596ad0/20170706_101607.jpg?part=0.2&view=1&vt=ANaJVrHp-i-JDiVC8ob3TnthYcv1c2nZwfkDAJR0hpZNatEDG4fIoNX3gfAEmG6GIH3spyiP4xIdpqqPMMB5s3qQ8-hjMiOdDFj8ILUOwPYav8meo14yGzA
 
https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/6ad55ea596ad0/20170706_101711.jpg?part=0.3&view=1&vt=ANaJVrHpnmPl7kDdIJI_I33uVpQElrwy6wdhB70vSkCDtqPGhFcF5x4G96CE3fLYWVFrgcfMV-O6zyqPT7SJ4ih5WImJSHzf9h-nWX-Ta3cEF1eitz5drD0
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SK707 11 AUG-2017:ID : 4 posts by 2 authors. Attachments (7)
Location: Kathmandu, Nepal
Date: 5 August  2017
Altitude: 4500 ft.
Sonchus asper (L.) Hill  ???

May be as per images at Sonchus asper

https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/af96818fa9d7f836/Sonchus-asper-Khalsa-Delhi-1.jpg?part=0.1&view=1&vt=ANaJVrFYm5QyeReedVCzPA7oCVsyXJszm9CE_ij2TXXjIz8vd15sf3CrfDK1uvVPUyTmxtAnkpyhJpKNh3hzX7wH7URmjVHDESDkM1KvHcRUL-fiZkFusaE
https://groups.google.com/group/indiantreepix/attach/eab8039f17d97fcc/Sonchus-asper-Khalsa-Delhi-3.jpg?part=0.4&authuser=0&view=1
 
The enigma of Sonchus oleraceous vs. S. asper: Perhaps no pair of species has been as confusing for me as distinction between Sonchus oleraceous and S. asper. This confusion has been more so once I started observing specimens in Delhi more closely. Classical distinction between the two species is commonly based on sharply spiny leaf margins and rounded basal auricles in S. asper and absence or spiny margins are very small spiny teeth and straight basal auricles in S. oleraceous
While studying the specimens in my area critically I noticed that young specimens especially in early part of the season say in March-early April in Delhi the plants are with no obvious marginal spines and straight basal auricles with acute tips of lobes, but same plants towards the end of April have sharply spiny leaves, and some auricles are clearly rounded and some with straight acute auricles. 
Today perhaps I found the first plant that I want to place under S. asper with confidence. It was a somewhat compact plant with ascending branches, obviously a younger plant but clearly spiny leaf margins. The auricles are much different, rounded and soft. I am uploading the  same for your comments. The plant is clearly different from plants I have seen or photographed up to now. 
  
https://groups.google.com/group/indiantreepix/attach/6042dba93fd743ce/DSCN6994.jpg?part=0.2&authuser=0&view=1
https://groups.google.com/group/indiantreepix/attach/6042dba93fd743ce/DSCN6992.jpg?part=0.1&authuser=0&view=1
 
Thistle from Kalatope id al170411: A plant from the thistle family...??
Location Kalatope, Chamaba
altitude 2100 mts

habit herb
habitat wild
height 12 inches (and growing)

Perhaps the first undisputed Sonchus asper I have seen. I hope I am not wrong.
Sonchus asper 
 
Asteraceae for ID : Bangalore : 18OCT20 : AK-28 : 3 posts by 2 authors. Attachments (4)
Seen growing near a lake.
Sonchus Species?

Sonchus asper (L.) Hill ??
Thanks … Does look like the suggested id.

Asteraceae for ID : Bangalore : 29SEP20 : AK-26 : 8 posts by 4 authors. Attachments (2)
Seen growing wild.
Sonchus Species?

Close to S. oleraceus
Agree with …
I think more close to Sonchus asper (L.) Hill as per comparative images and difference between the two at Sonchus. 

Sorry, earlier I gave a wrong id.
I think it should be Sonchus wightianus DC. as per comparative images at Sonchus
This looks more closer to Sonchus oleraceus as suggested by … and supported by ...
Can we recheck?
Pl. post high resolution images. 
I think more close to Sonchus asper (L.) Hill with spiny teeths. 

I guess you are right …

 
References:
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