Carduus edelbergii

Carduus edelbergii Rech.f., 1955. (Syn: Carduus lucidus Wall. nom. nud.; Carduus edelbergii Rech.f. subsp. lanatusCarduus nutans (auct. non L.) Hook. f.) as per efi thread;
 

Images by Gurcharan Singh, Dinesh Valke (Validation by Gurcharan Singh), Nidhan Singh (Validation by Gurcharan Singh) &  Prashant Awale (id by Gurcharan Singh) (Inserted by J.M.Garg) (For more photos & complete details, click on the links)

https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/90b3533fd5d48f7/Carduus-onopordioides-Kashmir-a.jpg?part=0.1&view=1&vt=ANaJVrEG9MXsgZVWrWcLt4LSmbgrjCkuYbyT6_LUjPocxeEBkCB_Wsw7RBHxoo2UG_LHvwShvlRPgJqE9imVqw_KX-tJISCaRXSxxh8Th8bh2vPjjd9BqAw
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https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/90b3533fd5d48f7/Carduus-onopordioides-Kashmir-c.jpg?part=0.3&view=1&vt=ANaJVrEnEJ5xcgzQ7RKHsXLE9J69cSyqkwS1NdLzqDy1eJela-XUMprESNDmrutd-ZZQqcOHmIKTGFKjMkQ4S5kBMju4m2JhW7HWi_-WFvjif1DVdE-n1pE
https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/12e326f1afa07c0c/050809-Lidder-Swagat3C.jpg?part=0.3&view=1&vt=ANaJVrHmoeEBtt4ObcZUshfQHbzWdu7bOiCH7vTGkFCm5n8XM_oPsMPRXgEKjQ7ziglJwef7Qiut5TMf33QWoe6lOrwcS4PwQosuP8JNOErrUGaRuYhY-G8
https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/12e326f1afa07c0c/050809-Lidder-Swagat3D.jpg?part=0.4&view=1&vt=ANaJVrFBLRhceU4PYViN_5nZhh9SY17akO3sNjFL570nEknjoL7Q7pjcVLec-e8cfFvoxBjupwVaNm8025n-j7u2MuafnCXkV4_GaDV5g0ZnYaE1G-i6N4M
https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/12e326f1afa07c0c/050809-Lidder-Swagat3A.jpg?part=0.1&view=1&vt=ANaJVrFlUdSLiqEjDLGbJTavcv8Pbq-yhpMxUT3OGgtCzaD2pdKnML3fkFmRjCOMEqxwr0tD3KWotZ8DfIOdVbQLQyJDJe78_OOSnEVuv9YZMw_-v7sYrLQ
https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/12e326f1afa07c0c/050809-Lidder-Swagat3B.jpg?part=0.2&view=1&vt=ANaJVrEw0rSNL8vLdeuHOPRKAJ1h7i2dDWdODQ28wc2dHfWiX_BRS3tGYNkEdg6Y3vG2JSHn88HZCovW-bd4TQlVy_TX6aCD8a7V3gi2EfjlNE81GCrB4Hk
 
   
at 'Aru' 'अडू' wildlife sanctuary, Lidder Valley, Jammu & Kashmir- 05th August 2009; Pampore Karewas, Kashmir on June 20, 2010; Kashmir thistles and similar plants-1-Carduus onopordioides - efloraofindia | Google GroupsRequest for ID 050809 Lidder Valley 3 - indiantreepix | Google Groups

 
Caucasian Cotton Thistle from Srinagar (12/06/11-NSJ 01): Looks to be Caucasian Cotton Thistle from Srinagar. Photo taken in June 2011.
Yes, Carduus onopordioides
C. edelbergii as per another thread.

Yes ...
 
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/proxy/zqtLUGrcB2n1g4UPwOxwk8ZN_I6qzEgsluXCAjBRXGKGrdeUd57ViXljMXfvVq-OJ73flggl1DqjVGPZEzkZmD9py6KSQDZUGlayyPNrobS9=w5000-h5000

¿ Carduus onopordioides Fisch. ex M.Bieb. ?
Place, Altitude: in Ooty (about 7300 ft asl)
Date, Time: 15 & 16 NOV 11
Habitat: wild, along roadsides
Habit: herb, about 1 m, flower-head about 15 - 20 mm across (guessing).

I a doubtful about last two photographs. They look like Onopordum.
Oh! Many thanks ... I did not realize the second sighting is another plant. They all looked same, growing along road sides.
I will upload mine so that you can compare and decide.
C. edelbergii as per another thread.
Thank you very much ... for resurfacing my query and getting me to page related to ID.
Thank you very much ... and ... for leading me to the ID.
Will incorporate the ID into my notes soon.
 
https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/fce2dfd07fc63c9/Caucasian%20Cotton%20Thistle%202.jpg?part=0.3&view=1&vt=ANaJVrF_gGfCfjBfk4j4LB_TH_gnTp_Z59J1i0--sSz2j3cbbzf52TrAaHsR3bVxtbT7cPFJZkpBMHkc12ziB6Yj52YO6y-N12XLcUHS0uxmNn46p4eKU9E
https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/fce2dfd07fc63c9/Caucasian%20Cotton%20Thistle%201.jpg?part=0.2&view=1&vt=ANaJVrEmLRqFg2qOX2ZaCYVgb5-MkbCNL5l9TpaKJ6SQorr9CLzELjv5OnXYyO3Xs9uPqTd_F7z30wsYYfsFRBEW3KAyfpUCU60MxefxYJtmEkrqCYJ3gBQ
https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/fce2dfd07fc63c9/Caucasian%20Cotton%20Thistle%20-%20Cirsium%20verutum.jpg?part=0.1&view=1&vt=ANaJVrF_hNimKsHuBAu9V1ZSyb4NaKZtNnV8OPSQBfAx9eJ3L4bfKw5La-zzdFlTMSzyaQ7YGDV_0gu9gjpGZmmkUT0_p1WqRwuOcBoWwfy-sZezMKz2A5g

Asteraceae Fortnight Part 2-Discoid heads - Cirsium verutum (NSJ-09): Attachments (3). 2 posts by 2 authors. 
Caucasian Cotton Thistle - Cirsium verutum from Srinagar (Jun-11)
Carduus onopordioides I hope
C. edelbergii as per another thread.
Yes ...
 
https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/afbd837888d2a7c/IMG_2196.jpg?part=0.4&view=1&vt=ANaJVrGwSM-WaXlBZ0G7FtGGk_hV5Cfv3MfKR83bSl_Wx2HOTa2ynXytZX8U8g0foklqqmUTIp6ULv8rbsiztyKmedW-2W_jLdRMyL-GylEUAYhEBaLfxlw
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Asteraceae Week (Part II - Discoid heads) :: Thistle from Hunder Sand Dunes Ladakh :: PKA13: : :
Attachments (5). 3 posts by 3 authors.
Seen this Thistle (Asteraceae) plant at the Sand dunes at Hunder, Nubra Valley, Ladakh.
Plant was seen growing in sand. Few plants were of whitish heads also. Sharing photographs of the same.
Date/Time: 18-09-2011 / 12:15PM
To me this looks like Cirisium arvense... this comes as a surprise to know its very wide range of distribution ...
Neither leaves nor long spines on involucre bracts suggest Cirsium arvense
I would go with Carduus onopordioides.
The Kashmir Carduus, treated as C. nutans in FBI, has more recently been treated as C. onopordioides (Fl. Afghanistan; Fl. Nainitalensis) or C. edelbergii (Flowers of Himalayas; Stewart catalogue; as subsp. lanatus Kazmi in Ann. checklist of Nepal plants). Recently I also read about C. pycnocephalus growing in J & K (probably described in Sharma, B. D. et al., eds. 1993–. Flora of India. (F India)).
I have seen three distinct populations this year:
one with larger heads 4-6 cm across, nearly globose with broader involucre bracts more or less spreading and heads purple to white, the leaves more spiny and not flattened;  
the second similar to first one but less spiny, heads oblong, barely 15-20 mm broad, 3-4 cm long, involucre bracts less spreading, leaves similar but smaller and less spiny;  
third seen mostly in Dachhigam has smaller heads, although more globose in shape like first one, in shape less than 2.5 cm across and with more or less erect involucre bracts, leaves are less spiny and more or less flattened. heads are mostly purple. the latter fits with C. pycnocephalus but heads are solitary, not clustered as typical for this species.  
I am sending all three for your strict scrutiny and sort their identity, particularly whether globular one is edelbergii or ononopordioides (Stewart was unsure whether two are synonyms or not; now treated distinct species. The genus is profusely flowering these days. Perhaps you can scrutinise them further. 
C. edelbergii as per another thread.
 
https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/86fe3cbfa070443a/IMG_2156.jpg?part=0.3&view=1&vt=ANaJVrEwo-sDC_z2DGn2AjoIsXV8uSgDCdKxl4xj23szsnEY8YlDqm2jp-RQYYQvSYv-5BIoTX2Y-_mfXtRB-bC2b3LF_Xx6k8w1IL8-eMZSE-w1-b5sHJo
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Thistle for ID-021011-PKA3: Seen this thistle plant at the Sand dunes at Hundar, Nubra Valley, Ladakh.
Date/Time: 18-09-2011 / 12:15PM
Location: Hundar Sand Dunes, Nubra valley, Ladakh.
I hope Carduus edelbergii
But white flowered heads look stange. Were they growing in same area.?
Yes, same area.
Do you have leaf shape pictures and vein patterns? and basal cluster...?
I am surprised, this one remarkably resembles Cirisium arvense but for being more prickly at the leaf margins.
 
https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/869a6fd68bb08213/Carduus%20nutans%20%20(5).JPG?part=0.3&view=1&vt=ANaJVrEIbsN4VYoJrFX1Z2hvAlZQryEU-mkfRoSeD4J7Fi1Gs8HUgNWjdeCT3g_Ug49mJIbbEdE889OOWfA4IojSaaEjr5iWiPBuyRyeP7X7RklgIv6hwPo
https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/869a6fd68bb08213/Carduus%20nutans%20%20(6).JPG?part=0.4&view=1&vt=ANaJVrFlIjjNUwAxCWcQja1XZs_6W5wko7kVaLkcmoj5nCHQyK-3jd9Dvrk6ECVjs5VYM6Ze6_dSIMJ-5DJ-3JPCHGPW5-npTdH8yBfgePMUmkTu08V6xBQ
https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/869a6fd68bb08213/Carduus%20nutans%20%20(9).JPG?part=0.6&view=1&vt=ANaJVrF94GhCHFNGyKwgq6B2urpicHvwhNFXDTdpXWX5csBCYfh8r7z_iGxQqzdmwoQIMYi6KmXhOGD_TTjMpbqE1Z8393g5KiQO33WeVlXob507qzVGUf0
https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/869a6fd68bb08213/Carduus%20nutans%20%20(10).JPG?part=0.7&view=1&vt=ANaJVrE-7KYf-tvsTEUDgMfPMGxLNh-L_eg3BiRX_mhK9Acqpc4Wp8YI7-Gt4PTwRXdQjFA4e23aDADK9yR74LDlsezQLtutzt5BMtg1dzbog24bNRICRn4
https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/869a6fd68bb08213/Carduus%20nutans%20%20(13).JPG?part=0.8&view=1&vt=ANaJVrGB50KZYkd0psPaNSyjB2wCLCAOo587s1WzDnmMRNY5yzngYl24LS2EopVza0uqlmEa-4Dw7-gXaTFHniBxABXukyFcxi3QsAvYV3N9yToPTnXb1TQ
 
https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/869a6fd68bb08213/Carduus%20nutans%20%20(8).JPG?part=0.5&view=1&vt=ANaJVrEKYbxJSy_1TORiiuWm9BSCnEXUzVwwrnogf_p3l7FOiuo4luoPZt07V-LRoRyLBYealZz-WFhHTPSHFYaHQ4-T4Uinm88srP0Fs9bPD90jY49OnSU
https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/869a6fd68bb08213/Carduus%20nutans%20%20(1).JPG?part=0.1&view=1&vt=ANaJVrEUvBAw-djdVEOORmGcySZIzamXQWW3qgZLkM8cOLAS9O16LpQ8x53qjyzl0KDacSV9gDc_u5SN7Wa7T2taTlI3V7rxdg-P2G151h_4GMVwKU3nz3c
https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/869a6fd68bb08213/Carduus%20nutans%20%20(4).JPG?part=0.2&view=1&vt=ANaJVrHmZdpDXJPfmy1BCDo8LBAeZVg9TQiLc0EesKkTno7PgOK4v9fo-eowyyb0TnFeBWsT3IMz8nbZNnqX6i5rrnJFYOPv5PibZ1aq-YGl-xj7frLgc5E
This beautiful thistle was found growing on a hill top in Chakrata area, Budher caves road... I hope this should be Carduus nutans L.... please validate/correct..
Carduus nutans does not grow in India. It could be C. onopordioides or edelbergii. I have still find differences between these two.
Thanks Sir for the input.. actually I was guided by this...
Yes ...
This earlier reported in FBI and other earlier Floras.
According to Kitamura Fl. Afghan 394, 1960, C. nutans does not grow in Indian subcontinent. It is C. onopordioides Fisch. ex M. Bieb.. This has been followed in Fl. Nainitalensis, 1968 and my book in 1976. 
Flowers of Himalayas considers Himalayan C. nutans (C. lucidus Wall.) as C. edelbergii.
The Plant List recognises both. I have yet to find differences between the two to decide precisely.
Please have a relook in light of recent discussions...
Yes after Flora of India publication it should be C. edelbergii
Thanks Sir...
 
https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/6149925ead770666/Carduus-onopordioides-Dachhigam-IMG_7162-sp-2-Kashmir-2.jpg?part=0.6&view=1&vt=ANaJVrH5e5npI3JlzaGwZQp5Aqw25n8LOFYYoisP7g4vVnwLYR2QH24sCmBHQCoImlxbxSBxS-EQ2ZZ2LaGLhm9VIebdSG_EUfXXn_oZx26LOtI9fLwRsjU
https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/e74b83b6c35aa0f7/Carduus-onopordioides-Dachhigam-DSC04763-sp-2-Kashmir-1.jpg?part=0.4&view=1&vt=ANaJVrF9sW_hD7aQ1lN-pIXdkpraCewN4dIK6hKVhIqO-ZuEJMVHUDoF-hrYSU9N5Vtdg8rs044FjGqWgox95_L29YsNY_Bvpdr1Yd3rhiI7f37FYazFkRg
https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/e74b83b6c35aa0f7/Carduus-onopordioides--near%20Magam-IMG_6760-Kashmir-3.jpg?part=0.3&view=1&vt=ANaJVrHkBBPjVEeyP7YrN2Vkv39DB9Ux4Scd8zuyxopilSjkKcsYuFpMsjV-9AkMr0UJNefu-3TTAZVSLYPLO-Zbn88QoBl0VQAYfXDnRd8c5W3W71akxOU
https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/e74b83b6c35aa0f7/Carduus-onopordioides-Narbal-IMG_9021-Kashmir-2.jpg?part=0.2&view=1&vt=ANaJVrHc8htOuZKFeOLD60D4Ar2wMvTVCbQDaxG_aDO6k7gXgbPWtvAKj5vZyEYjACSE5YS_SKdMtuatYh7P83R3V1Xihh4ZIdvgD5G7kbkOoc3FQZ2CCEQ
 
https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/6149925ead770666/Carduus-onopordioides-small-head%202cm-Dachhigam-IMG_7448-sp-3-Kashmir-1.jpg?part=0.9&view=1&vt=ANaJVrEEZvz8tdHgkZBHYB6lRzEuULLimqhuESF89jnMvXVn8wvsZBEmzUU__GK1YfPNqWy3V9wtIYkflucJ8R-lWeCauYojh2B9Hl1HNsKz4u75HluJgsA
https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/6149925ead770666/Carduus-onopordioides-small-head%202cm-Dachhigam-IMG_7442-sp-3-Kashmir-3.jpg?part=0.8&view=1&vt=ANaJVrGWOofXWHuuYRnj1qHhzhSJJtVIJ3SHJ_iFm8lfRMMN1fGwidd7OdiA-4gYhRb19ntcmbNeYiedQGAC78HpuIWZ2qZgYrE8Z-s7HkKDfUwKWtfj58g
https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/6149925ead770666/Carduus-onopordioides-small-head%202cm-Dachhigam-DSC04932-sp-3-Kashmir-2.jpg?part=0.7&view=1&vt=ANaJVrGTl_JCVNZ2awhxAunaoxFWiYwrUrstoM9ShgSXxDSI5QwVoAc3neUdlw4U8NcoBWWVi4FQpnu6513xpygwZO3WT1RY24sHWiIFplfkZbvcrsU1Vvk
https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/6149925ead770666/Carduus-onopordioides-Dachhigam-DSC04765-sp-2-Kashmir-3.jpg?part=0.5&view=1&vt=ANaJVrGW4D1oSuut3JQvtNlN-cqvjE0uWYqnqbMQJEJzhED9RrKWWGNEfsHM0EhpReAe3-F8D3Q9xmGL8LCA4bN7CX7rmQVM9W9-O3B2IMbfAqYWkj2aKYQ
Carduus in Kashmir....onopordioides.......edelbergii.......pycnocephalus:  The Kashmir Carduus, treated as C. nutans in FBI, has more recently been treated as C. onopordioides (Fl. Afghanistan; Fl. Nainitalensis) or C. edelbergii (Flowers of Himalayas; Stewart catalogue; as subsp. lanatus Kazmi in Ann. checklist of Nepal plants). Recently I also read about C. pycnocephalus growing in J & K (probably described in Sharma, B. D. et al., eds. 1993–. Flora of India. (F India)).  
I have seen three distinct populations this year:
one with larger heads 4-6 cm across, nearly globose with broader involucre bracts more or less spreading and heads purple to white, the leaves more spiny and not flattened;  
the second similar to first one but less spiny, heads oblong, barely 15-20 mm broad, 3-4 cm long, involucre bracts less spreading, leaves similar but smaller and less spiny;  
third seen mostly in Dachhigam has smaller heads, although more globose in shape like first one, in shape less than 2.5 cm across and with more or less erect involucre bracts, leaves are less spiny and more or less flattened. heads are mostly purple. the latter fits with C. pycnocephalus but heads are solitary, not clustered as typical for this species.  
I am sending all three for your strict scrutiny and sorty their identity, particularly whether globular one is edelbergii or ononopordioides (Stewart was unsure whether two are synonyms or not; now treated distinct species. The genus is profusely flowering these days. Perhaps you can scrutinise them further.
C. edelbergii as per another thread.
 
https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/601c1db10cf99385/P1450874.jpg?part=0.2&view=1&vt=ANaJVrGsCVkcwD_x7vsMtH7EInrwj-wgcCUzXXY4hLRZ4urdimkxX95XkaC6idWR2qsO5fQ9pQWBPc5DiGDnagAJVkg3G3MPmH2sBMVbvQq5zcs27pBgL5U
 
https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/601c1db10cf99385/P1450881.jpg?part=0.4&view=1&vt=ANaJVrGzeQ2zkL4NFmYIZOC5FuZfOv69L9cbvKSfe1quqbEOPzliic9RzsPjsxW7ufTtdNWaTFf4a8fchU9UkIhLHn5oXK6q1JLYDz9hRNR9UYGa7FuWIDU
https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/601c1db10cf99385/P1460244.jpg?part=0.6&view=1&vt=ANaJVrG1cikXsnITKwa2Uhd1kF7u0VLG6Jp1IzevkPf0gpyMi-1coSKchrvlDpilt7zrQ89ctPhwGBwycfvD1hHu1O-7jVvtDVcoeLIOVlxKxNJsn3Mk3pc
https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/601c1db10cf99385/P1450877.jpg?part=0.3&view=1&vt=ANaJVrF2tjFZ-0j3ar1WsH58f5pvVoLpMzD7-cOYjmPNKWZaW0B2BFLT02Hf7qC7fsL3OmQvw57ticqhln21NKbzYLwVuCF4FbSW9zCAtr1tiM9On6HfX2s
Place: Ooty town (~ 7250 ft asl), Tamilnadu
Time: November 15, 2011 at 5.07pm and November 16, 2011 at 9.28am
Habit: small erect herb
Habitat: growing along roadside
Plant: standing about a metre high, with slender stem, branching from bottom.
Leaf: spiny, along stem and branches, basal leaves not observed
Flower: about 10 mm across

The plant is of course Carduus. Perhaps we have to find out whether it is Carduus edelbergii or C. onopordioides.
The Indian plant was originally known as Carduus nutans, but was latter found to be a distinct species Carduus onopordioides (as per Stewart who published a list of Kashmir Plants). In later revision of genus Carduus by Kazmi (1964) Carduus edelbergii was described occurring in Pakistan. Perhaps some one having access to this monograph can help in fixing identity of this plant as well as uploaded on FOI by me as C. onopordioides.
Perhaps some one should confirm whether Carduus is reported from Ooty.
C. edelbergii as per another thread
 
https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/8cb3b7dc8a142/Thistle-Kashmir-DSC_0085.JPG?part=0.2&view=1&vt=ANaJVrF-rIoLMkLClo9S_roBe-sHTXQVJCkkYi-yFe-Zh7PgT_ikaZZN69My51FS5eN8WIr6HtGECCx7v3Ubmt6MwqO15seXoeogYRrarvReHhxFTqExDmw
https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/8cb3b7dc8a142/Thistle-Kashmir-DSC_0011.JPG?part=0.1&view=1&vt=ANaJVrHk0Mm0Eg5aW2P5D3TNUQOOlzXWdvPRPa9UHwLxNgvxOVugUIP8O1SziKh_KlcRwl-A4SlRVV0bDqbi_vScxMhzxXi95ZQ14iTWDykR_I_fND2x9CM

Thistle Species : Kashmir : 040518 : AK-6 : 4 posts by 2 authors. Attachments (2) 
Thistle seen on way to Gulmarg during our visit.
Missed posting earlier.
To me, it looks close to ... pictures of Carduus edelbergii on FOI.

To me also appear close to images at Carduus edelbergii 


  
 
References:
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